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True Colour Management vs "Standards"

Offline Fingers Posted 04-17-2011 - 04:28 PM
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I've recently been in discussion with a seller of "colour management solutions". Their marketing contains case studies of wide format print shops who are over the moon that they get the same colour out of every device.

This worried me! Surely this means that the machines with the best colour capabilities are being restricted to match the worst? What other explanation could there be? And indeed - that is pretty much what's happening.

So they're taking all incoming artwork, converting into ISOCoated (restricting the colour to ISOCoated is how I'd say it!), and then from that limited start point some machines hit that colour. Others "get as close as they can". So in other words, they've just capped the output and those that were short on colour in the first place, remain short on colour.

Now I'll get to my point.

I understand the use of colour standards. USWebCoated SWOP, ISOCoated. whatever you like, it brings consistency of output. But consistently DULL restricted output. To achieve consistent output to those standards, you need to accurately understand the full output gamut of any machine/media combi. So the work is done to be able to use the full gamut, and then the stabilisers are put on before any ink is spilled.

It surely cannot be that the operators don't understand digital colour - that they don't know what's occuring with the numbers through the workflow? Lets give the benefit of the doubt, and assume they know exactly what's happening, and are choosing the restriction.

This then confuses me! If I want to match a SWOP litho press, I'll limit to SWOP by converting artwork to that space before printing. If I want to match to a FOGRA certified litho press I'll do the same. But if I want to use the full colour of the machine to print something from a larger colour space I can - and I encourage my clients to work in larger spaces specifically to do so.

So my question is this - what are the benefits in standardising Wide Format output to match a litho press output?
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 04-20-2011 - 03:17 AM
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HALLELUJAH!!

Fingers, from now on I am your biggest fan! ;-)

I totally agree with you!

My motto is:
get the maximum out of your device and keep it consistent!


(04-17-2011 04:28 PM)Fingers Wrote:  I've recently been in discussion with a seller of "colour management solutions". Their marketing contains case studies of wide format print shops who are over the moon that they get the same colour out of every device.

This worried me! Surely this means that the machines with the best colour capabilities are being restricted to match the worst? What other explanation could there be? And indeed - that is pretty much what's happening.

So they're taking all incoming artwork, converting into ISOCoated (restricting the colour to ISOCoated is how I'd say it!), and then from that limited start point some machines hit that colour. Others "get as close as they can". So in other words, they've just capped the output and those that were short on colour in the first place, remain short on colour.

Now I'll get to my point.

I understand the use of colour standards. USWebCoated SWOP, ISOCoated. whatever you like, it brings consistency of output. But consistently DULL restricted output. To achieve consistent output to those standards, you need to accurately understand the full output gamut of any machine/media combi. So the work is done to be able to use the full gamut, and then the stabilisers are put on before any ink is spilled.

It surely cannot be that the operators don't understand digital colour - that they don't know what's occuring with the numbers through the workflow? Lets give the benefit of the doubt, and assume they know exactly what's happening, and are choosing the restriction.

This then confuses me! If I want to match a SWOP litho press, I'll limit to SWOP by converting artwork to that space before printing. If I want to match to a FOGRA certified litho press I'll do the same. But if I want to use the full colour of the machine to print something from a larger colour space I can - and I encourage my clients to work in larger spaces specifically to do so.

So my question is this - what are the benefits in standardising Wide Format output to match a litho press output?
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Offline jonkovach Posted 04-20-2011 - 04:31 AM
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I second that. I run a 3M Matchprint profile off my z6100 as opposed to a SWOP v2. Always have - I have always seen better results from that profile. Why limit your machine?
Jon

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 04-20-2011 - 05:49 AM
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Hi Jon,

What you are saying might be true since the 3M Matchprint profile has a larger color gamut than the SWOP Coated profile. However: color management is based upon LAB values. What you are doing by changing the input profile is changing the color. The question is if that is better....Technically it is incorrect what you are doing.

The point Fingers makes is that our printer might be able to produce 100 sq.ft of color (just to visualize it, don't use the sq.ft to express color gamuts ;-)). By using a STANDARD you are taking the original artwork (which might be 120 sq.ft of color) and convert it back to the weakest link in the chain, which might only produce 80 sq.ft of color. By doing that, you loose color you were able to produce.

The whole discussion about standardization is about making life easier for agencies, since they deliver all files in 1 color space and always expect the same output on any device. In wide-format printing that is a problem for now, since there are so many different processes and substrates. Also the purpose of the prints we make is often very different from 10.000 brochures printed in offset. In our industry we need vibrant colors, eye-catching billboards and we often have to simulate colors which are outside a standardized gamut. In offset or screenprinting they have a choice to take a spot ink and use that. And I am not even talking about the impossible subtrates and processes like textile printing on flag for example. On those medias you want to achieve a VISUAL effect in a gamut which is so small that it is hardly impossible to simulate any process.

That's why I suggest customers to do the following:
- profile your printer to its maximum
- use LAB based spot color matching ("Use Spot Color replacement"
- if you would like to simulate an offset printing process or a standard: select a proofer profile in the profile setup in your quickset or in preflight, use a relative colorimetric rendering intend

The last option will convert all components in your PDF file (or whatever file you use) to the proofer color space. From there it converts to output. Changing the input profile is NOT the right way, since it is going to change the source color (the color the customer defined and created), therefor you should always respect the embedded profile, unless you are absolutely sure it is wrong.

The "colorflow" would then look like this:
For a PDF containing both RGB and CMYK images

RGB Image Profile converts to Proofer color space
RGB Vector Profile converts to Proofer color space
CMYK Image Profile converts to Proofer color space
CMYK Vector Profile converts to Proofer color space
Pantone color converts to Proofer color space

Now everything is in the proofer color space, from there ONYX converts to the output profile.

What you are doing is simulating the proofing device/profile, which might be ISO Coated, US Webcoated etc.

Just let me know if you got more questions.

Ciao!
Marco


(04-20-2011 04:31 AM)jonkovach Wrote:  I second that. I run a 3M Matchprint profile off my z6100 as opposed to a SWOP v2. Always have - I have always seen better results from that profile. Why limit your machine?
Jon
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Offline Fingers Posted 04-20-2011 - 11:20 AM
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Jon - changing the input profile as you're suggesting would mean you're deliberately NOT printing correct colour. You might prefer the output, but it's not what the artwork was asking for. Unless of course you're creating the artwork in 3MMatchprint too - in which case you're spot on.

Marco - yep, that's exactly my point. Simulate any standard you like and have the choice to move between according to the project. Why deliberately limit all of your output to one standard if you have so much more to offer - AND - especially given that standard is still available to you should you need to limit to it, exactly as you describe!?

PS. Marco Re: Textiles. Mike Adams (on here as Correct Color) created an output profile for me for Oce Polytextile flag material on the JV3, the gamut of which would blow your socks off. That stuff takes some ink.
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 04-21-2011 - 11:18 AM
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(04-20-2011 11:20 AM)Fingers Wrote:  Jon - changing the input profile as you're suggesting would mean you're deliberately NOT printing correct colour. You might prefer the output, but it's not what the artwork was asking for. Unless of course you're creating the artwork in 3MMatchprint too - in which case you're spot on.

Marco - yep, that's exactly my point. Simulate any standard you like and have the choice to move between according to the project. Why deliberately limit all of your output to one standard if you have so much more to offer - AND - especially given that standard is still available to you should you need to limit to it, exactly as you describe!?

PS. Marco Re: Textiles. Mike Adams (on here as Correct Color) created an output profile for me for Oce Polytextile flag material on the JV3, the gamut of which would blow your socks off. That stuff takes some ink.

I am doing a lot of textile profiling too. Mainly on AGFA AquaJets, I am currently in South Africa profiling their new inks. Compared to direct to textile with disperse inks, solvent and UV is a piece of cake, especially on flag materials and low resolution spectra heads....but I am almost flying back to Amsterdam ;-)
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2011 07:17 AM by MarcoRoos.)
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-22-2011 - 06:39 AM
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Fingers,

Yeah...I know who you're talking about. After I got your email about them, I talked to those guys myself, and it was an interesting discussion. Their chief US representative told me that "ICC-based color management has failed abysmally" and offered up their version of a color workflow as a bullet-proof alternative.

Their response to the issue you raised here is basically that most UV machines don't print a much larger gamut than Gracol in any event, and in the case of solvent machines that do, well, basically--who cares? All aboard for printing as a commodity!

(An interesting aside on the whole "Who cares?" argument, however: I spent a couple days in Lubbock, TX last week working on some things for my buddies at Signs On The Go. 'Course Lubbock's not a very big town, but SOTG is a big shop and as such just about the only game in town. And they do a lot of vehicle wraps. So many that it's almost surprising how many wrapped vehicles there are in Lubbock, and what's more surprising is how good they all look. They all just pop. Compared to Lubbock, most of the wrapped vehicles you see in most of the towns in the US look downright faded, as if maybe the printer left about half his machine capability out of the job...

which, of course, is exactly what they did.)

I'm working on a few things in response to these guys, and going out to the ISA Show in Vegas next week to talk to them and a few other folks.

It might even get interesting.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

(Edited to add: Of course as far as I'm concerned, the whole argument that UV printers aren't all that large of gamut devices so therefore they can be restricted to Gracol--or whatever standard--misses the mark as well. Because they still don't print with Litho-spec ISO standard whatever-it-is CMYK inks; so while their gamuts may be in the same basic size range as Gracol, they're not the same. So the effective gamut you actually get to use is only that space where the standard and the machine color space overlap.)
Jon,

Just to amplify and expand on what Marcos and Fingers are telling you: In actuality, by assigning the 3M Matchprint profile to your files and sending that to your printer, not only are you altering your files' color values, but you're also leaving a considerable amount of your printer capability unused.

As illustration, in this image, the red gamut is SWOP, the green is 3M Matchprint, and the blue is an HP z6100 printing at 600x1200 on Photo Satin.

[Image: 6100gamut.jpg]

As you can see, 3M Matchprint is indeed a slightly bigger color space than SWOP, so as happens any time you assign a larger color space to an image created in a smaller color space, colors will tend to intensify. Since this isn't a huge move, the change won't be huge, but it will be a change.

However, once you've made this change and then send this file to print, all you'll get out of your printer--depending entirely on the quality of your printer profiles as to how well it works--is a faithful reproduction of the colors in the color space you sent it.

Meaning that for every file you send your printer in the 3M Matchprint color space, all the areas of machine capability you see outside of it in the blue area, are not being used.

(And at this time I know I'm a broken record, but this is one of many, many, many reasons it's just a fact that if you're really serious about color, you should have a color professional come set up your workflow and either do your profiling or teach you how to do it. There's a lot to color management, and attempting to learn color management by reading message boards is about as useful as attempting to learn to be a lawyer by watching Perry Mason.)


Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2011 07:52 AM by Correct Color.)
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Offline Nishan Posted 04-26-2011 - 10:00 PM
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Hi Marco ,

So if i understand you correctly, setting up onyx as you suggest - So I can rip with with say ISO (or embedded profile) , and then using spot color table - hit colors that are outside ISO gamut, but within the printer gamut.

Regards
Nesh

(04-20-2011 04:31 AM)
That's why I suggest customers to do the following:
- profile your printer to its maximum
- use LAB based spot color matching ("Use Spot Color replacement"
- if you would like to simulate an offset printing process or a standard: select a proofer profile in the profile setup in your quickset or in preflight, use a relative colorimetric rendering intend

The last option will convert all components in your PDF file (or whatever file you use) to the proofer color space. From there it converts to output. Changing the input profile is NOT the right way, since it is going to change the source color (the color the customer defined and created), therefor you should always respect the embedded profile, unless you are absolutely sure it is wrong.

The "colorflow" would then look like this:
For a PDF containing both RGB and CMYK images

RGB Image Profile converts to Proofer color space
RGB Vector Profile converts to Proofer color space
CMYK Image Profile converts to Proofer color space
CMYK Vector Profile converts to Proofer color space
Pantone color converts to Proofer color space

Now everything is in the proofer color space, from there ONYX converts to the output profile.

What you are doing is simulating the proofing device/profile, which might be ISO Coated, US Webcoated etc.

Just let me know if you got more questions.

Ciao!
Marco


[quote='jonkovach Wrote:  
I second that. I run a 3M Matchprint profile off my z6100 as opposed to a SWOP v2. Always have - I have always seen better results from that profile. Why limit your machine?
Jon


[/quote]
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Offline jonkovach Posted 04-28-2011 - 09:14 AM
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Hi guys,

Okay, let me just say that I'm concerned. And I thank you all for that (you dirty, rotten so and sos).

I want to make sure I'm doing the right things here... so humor me. First of all, I do not alter profiles in the files that I receive from customers. If they come in set up with SWOP v2, or 3M match, or nothing at all, that is how I leave them. I generate PDFs honoring all embedded profiles (or lack thereof).

Coming onto the RIP, I have the settings set as shown in the attached JPGs. This is set to convert to 3M Match... I am thinking that this is where I am wrong.

I do, in fact, have my printer profiled to it's maximum gamut. I took classes at GIA back in the day, and am not the greatest at profiling, but I think I do a pretty good job. I've been doing it for several years now. So I think I'm good there.

And I do use the Spot Color Table. So I'm good there.

So I guess I'm confused as to where I should be setting things up differently. In the attached JPGs - should I have those set to my printer ICC as opposed to a 3M Match ICC profile? Is that what I'm doing wrong? I've always thought that I'm not changing the input profile - but is that in fact what is going on here?

And if that's the case, and I set those to, say, my printer ICC... are my colors going to be dramatically different from what I'm outputting now - or will the gamut just be increased?

Oh me, oh my, to think that I've might have been outputting limited color gamut for several years now is a little unsettling. Eep!

Thanks guys,
Jon


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Offline Hotspur Posted 04-28-2011 - 03:19 PM
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Hi Jon

I don't think you've too much to worry about.

Although Marco & Mike have forgotton more about colour than I'll ever know, I can see where the confusion might lie.

In your one-line response to Marco it appeared as if you were saying that you converted all the files into Matchprint, which would be wrong as both Marco & Mike explain with some terrific info.

But your last response shows that actually you do not convert files that already have a colour space assigned - you have ticked the box that keeps embedded profiles so for these files you are fine (assuming the originator embedded the correct ones in the first place!)

The issue to be concerned with is what happens when files arrive that do not have a colour space already embedded. Now your selections do matter. You will not know the circumstances in which many of these files were originated so almost any choice you make here will probably be wrong to some extent.

Thus printshops often just choose a colour space that has a wide gamut in the hope that most of the colours in the original are captured & printed just as you have done and Matchprint is arguably the most often chosen CMYK colourspace to do this job, although these days people tend toward the Fogras in Europe.

Don't be tempted to turn the input profiles off which will always be wrong (although some poster printers like to do this).

Keep the colour table on and you have the same setup as 90% of Onyx users.

It's not really colour management as you don't have the correct input colour space for naked files but short of taking the file back into the application & resending it with the correct colour space and the designers blessing, you have little choice if you want to get a job out in time.

Going back to your first response, Marco was talking about using the SWOP / US Web etc colour space as a proofing profile i.e selected in the dialogue where it says "proof" near the bottom. This will reduce the gamut to a particular Standard which can then be done for your other devices so that all the gamuts match (but will not be optimised as discussed).

What I think you were referring to was your use of Matchprint in the CMYK Image and Vector dialogues which is a very different matter as above. I think this is where some confusion might have taken place.

Hopefully Mike/Marco will come back & tell us where this workflow can be improved for more accurate colour but what you have been doing seems an acceptable compromise and is a pretty regular setup amongst many users I have been in contact with.
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-29-2011 - 06:50 AM
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Jon,

Quote:First of all, I do not alter profiles in the files that I receive from customers.

Er...

Actually, yes, you do.

Or at least your current setup certainly allows for that possibility.

Keep in mind a couple things: First is that tagged or not, the pixels in every file relate to some color space--the color space in which they were created, whether whoever created the file is aware of that fact or of the color space or not. Second is that that 3M Matchprint profile doesn't install with any Adobe application; I had to dig it out of Onyx to make that little visual. And what that means is that the chance any client actually sent you an untagged image created in that space is virtually non-existent.

So, by your setup, any untagged CMYK images are going to have that color space assigned to them by the RIP before processing. And it's almost a certainty that that assign is going to be incorrect.

Of course if your images are tagged, it makes no real difference. But in that event, using that color space as a default serves no purpose.

However and whatever, as long as you're sending CMYK to the printer, yes, you are most definitely not using all your printer capabiltiy, exactly as indicated above.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 05-05-2011 - 12:47 AM
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Sorry for my late reply, I have been travelling in the USA and South Africa (Nesh certainly remembers that ;-)).

As Mike stated:
Using the embedded profile will use the embedded profile which comes with the file (that should be easy)

For all files that do NOT contain embedded profiles, the profiles you select in the Profile Setup dialog in ONYX will be used.

3M Matchprint is a CMYK profile that describes the color space of a 3M Machtprint proofing device. This is most likely not the color space the designer used when creating the file. Proofing is a process where you use an inkjet printer to simulate an offset press (you can proof anything, however in most cases an offset printer is simulated).

A proofing workflow looks like this:

Input profiles ---> Press profile (or printer, or whatever final output device ---> Proofer profile

This setup will simulate the press on the proofer. Profiles are used to convert the CMYK values so they hit the specific color you designed (LAB color).

By printing artwork from your customers you have to select the color profile they used to design it. If they didn't embed the profiles, they most likely used the default settings in Adobe CS software, which is US Webcoated SWOP v2 (for the USA). That is why using that profile in ONYX is better, but only for files that don't have an embedded profile.

Of course there still is a chance customers embed the wrong profile, but there is not so much you can do about that, unless you are 100% sure they used the wrong one.

Printing color is like going to a bar and order 1 gallon.....the bartender will always ask you: 1 gallon of what??

The CMYK amounts in a file will stay the same but the color will change when you change the profile, it's like drinking 1 gallon of beer or 1 gallon of whiskey....quite a difference.... ;-) (not for us Europeans, of course....we're very tough ;-)).

Hope this helps....


BTW: Color Concepts is planning an Expert Profiling and Color Management seminar in the USA, most likely in Chicago first. Please let me know if you are interested in attending this and I will send you all details. The goal of this seminar is to teach you everything about ONYX profiling based upon the years of experience we have at Color Concepts with qualification and profiling for several RIP software. I will present it myself, in German.... (that's a joke of course....;-)). This seminar is NOT designed for people that never saw a printer, but only for people that do have some experience and at least tried it once to create a profile or to optimize their workflow.


(04-29-2011 06:50 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  Jon,

Quote:First of all, I do not alter profiles in the files that I receive from customers.

Er...

Actually, yes, you do.

Or at least your current setup certainly allows for that possibility.

Keep in mind a couple things: First is that tagged or not, the pixels in every file relate to some color space--the color space in which they were created, whether whoever created the file is aware of that fact or of the color space or not. Second is that that 3M Matchprint profile doesn't install with any Adobe application; I had to dig it out of Onyx to make that little visual. And what that means is that the chance any client actually sent you an untagged image created in that space is virtually non-existent.

So, by your setup, any untagged CMYK images are going to have that color space assigned to them by the RIP before processing. And it's almost a certainty that that assign is going to be incorrect.

Of course if your images are tagged, it makes no real difference. But in that event, using that color space as a default serves no purpose.

However and whatever, as long as you're sending CMYK to the printer, yes, you are most definitely not using all your printer capabiltiy, exactly as indicated above.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline Correct Color Posted 05-05-2011 - 08:24 AM
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Hmmmmm...

Maybe I need to go to Europe and put on an Expert Profiling and Color Management seminar.

In Texan, of course.
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 05-05-2011 - 09:26 AM
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hahaha.....that would be REALLY cool! Just let me know, we're active in almost every EU country, Middle East and Africa ;-).

BTW: German is a foreign language for me, so the mix of the Dutch accent with the German in the USA will be a fantastic success... I am sure about that ;-)


(05-05-2011 08:24 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  Hmmmmm...

Maybe I need to go to Europe and put on an Expert Profiling and Color Management seminar.

In Texan, of course.
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Offline Fingers Posted 05-05-2011 - 09:29 AM
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LOL Mike

If Marco thinks there's a market for colour management seminars in the US - and you're already in the US - either Marco's wrong or you should be beating him to it right? Or - perhaps joining forces in some way and spreading the risk whilst doubling the expertise.

Just promise me... you guys stay away from the UK - I love the fact most printers here are donkeys when it comes to colour management, long may it continue.
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 05-05-2011 - 09:50 AM
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(05-05-2011 09:29 AM)Fingers Wrote:  LOL Mike

If Marco thinks there's a market for colour management seminars in the US - and you're already in the US - either Marco's wrong or you should be beating him to it right? Or - perhaps joining forces in some way and spreading the risk whilst doubling the expertise.

Just promise me... you guys stay away from the UK - I love the fact most printers here are donkeys when it comes to colour management, long may it continue.

Hey Mike, let's go to the UK ;-).

I don't want to compete to Mike, I would never be able to....but yes: I am very interested in seeking a cooperation! Our main focus in the USA will be our profiling and testing lab which we will be building in Salt Lake City. We already have a lot of customers in the USA that send their medias to our European testing and qualification centre which is a logistics nightmare at the moment. Plus the fact that we can hardly coop with the amount of work we're having here, we need to create additional capacity. But still: I think it is an idea to have Mike here in Europe for a seminar! Seriously...
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Offline Fingers Posted 05-05-2011 - 10:05 AM
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Definitely something to consider Mike - a trip to CONTINENTAL Europe...
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 05-05-2011 - 10:08 AM
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Fingers....there is no such thing as "Continental Europe", there is Europe and there is the UK :-)

(05-05-2011 10:05 AM)Fingers Wrote:  Definitely something to consider Mike - a trip to CONTINENTAL Europe...
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2011 10:10 AM by MarcoRoos.)
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Offline Fingers Posted 05-05-2011 - 03:14 PM
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Completely agree. You guys should do some great work in Europe. I'll come visit!
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Offline Nishan Posted 05-09-2011 - 08:42 PM
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Sweeeeet!!!.... you guys focus on US and Europe - and by the time you realise that there are intelligent life forms in Africa - I will rule color management in South Africa, now and my next three re-incarnations Smiley
Hi Marco ,

I cud retire on your frequent flyer miles Wink

Question - When you run the media reports, and you get the deltaE readings - what is it comparing the output profile to ? Cos' how does onyx know which input profile to compare it to ?

Regards
Nesh

(05-05-2011 12:47 AM)MarcoRoos Wrote:  Sorry for my late reply, I have been travelling in the USA and South Africa (Nesh certainly remembers that ;-)).

As Mike stated:
Using the embedded profile will use the embedded profile which comes with the file (that should be easy)

For all files that do NOT contain embedded profiles, the profiles you select in the Profile Setup dialog in ONYX will be used.

3M Matchprint is a CMYK profile that describes the color space of a 3M Machtprint proofing device. This is most likely not the color space the designer used when creating the file. Proofing is a process where you use an inkjet printer to simulate an offset press (you can proof anything, however in most cases an offset printer is simulated).

A proofing workflow looks like this:

Input profiles ---> Press profile (or printer, or whatever final output device ---> Proofer profile

This setup will simulate the press on the proofer. Profiles are used to convert the CMYK values so they hit the specific color you designed (LAB color).

By printing artwork from your customers you have to select the color profile they used to design it. If they didn't embed the profiles, they most likely used the default settings in Adobe CS software, which is US Webcoated SWOP v2 (for the USA). That is why using that profile in ONYX is better, but only for files that don't have an embedded profile.

Of course there still is a chance customers embed the wrong profile, but there is not so much you can do about that, unless you are 100% sure they used the wrong one.

Printing color is like going to a bar and order 1 gallon.....the bartender will always ask you: 1 gallon of what??

The CMYK amounts in a file will stay the same but the color will change when you change the profile, it's like drinking 1 gallon of beer or 1 gallon of whiskey....quite a difference.... ;-) (not for us Europeans, of course....we're very tough ;-)).

Hope this helps....


BTW: Color Concepts is planning an Expert Profiling and Color Management seminar in the USA, most likely in Chicago first. Please let me know if you are interested in attending this and I will send you all details. The goal of this seminar is to teach you everything about ONYX profiling based upon the years of experience we have at Color Concepts with qualification and profiling for several RIP software. I will present it myself, in German.... (that's a joke of course....;-)). This seminar is NOT designed for people that never saw a printer, but only for people that do have some experience and at least tried it once to create a profile or to optimize their workflow.


(04-29-2011 06:50 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  Jon,

Quote:First of all, I do not alter profiles in the files that I receive from customers.

Er...

Actually, yes, you do.

Or at least your current setup certainly allows for that possibility.

Keep in mind a couple things: First is that tagged or not, the pixels in every file relate to some color space--the color space in which they were created, whether whoever created the file is aware of that fact or of the color space or not. Second is that that 3M Matchprint profile doesn't install with any Adobe application; I had to dig it out of Onyx to make that little visual. And what that means is that the chance any client actually sent you an untagged image created in that space is virtually non-existent.

So, by your setup, any untagged CMYK images are going to have that color space assigned to them by the RIP before processing. And it's almost a certainty that that assign is going to be incorrect.

Of course if your images are tagged, it makes no real difference. But in that event, using that color space as a default serves no purpose.

However and whatever, as long as you're sending CMYK to the printer, yes, you are most definitely not using all your printer capabiltiy, exactly as indicated above.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2011 08:59 PM by Nishan.)
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Offline Fingers Posted 05-10-2011 - 01:00 AM
Post: #21
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141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

Hi Nesh,

As I understand it you're talking about the Colour Matching Table colour report - that outlines how accurately Pantones and any other colours you have set can be achieved on any given media. ?

If so, input profiles aren't relevant. The lookup table contains the LAB values of the colours. By definition, input profiles aren't required to take those into the conversion space (LAB) because they're already in LAB.

Have I misunderstood what you're asking?

Regards,
Craig
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 05-10-2011 - 03:46 AM
Post: #22
Frequent Flyer
222 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
ALL
Printer(s):
ALL

Nesh,

You're imported intelligence....as long as you keep talking about incarnations and have an accent (you know what I mean!) it will not be genuine African....

Nevertheless...you compress me all the time! ;-)

Ciao!
Marco




(05-10-2011 01:00 AM)Fingers Wrote:  Hi Nesh,

As I understand it you're talking about the Colour Matching Table colour report - that outlines how accurately Pantones and any other colours you have set can be achieved on any given media. ?

If so, input profiles aren't relevant. The lookup table contains the LAB values of the colours. By definition, input profiles aren't required to take those into the conversion space (LAB) because they're already in LAB.

Have I misunderstood what you're asking?

Regards,
Craig
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