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printing for dummies (me) i need help community!

Offline ztch10 Posted 07-05-2012 - 08:43 AM
Post: #1
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

Hello! my shop runs two Mimaki JV3 160 sp s. One runs on factory cartidges, and the other runs a JVS Triangle Bulk ink system. The latter of the two is the printer i am having issues with. Our tech said that upgrading from 7.2 to 7.3 would help, but i dont beleive the issues i have will comepletely go away from an update. Anytime an image is printed with ANY ICC profile turned on, the greys turn out with a large amount of green in the. GRC is off as well. When ICC is turned off, i can replicate the greys but then a color shift in red happens. all our red tones come out orange. We do not have access to a color measurment device, and dropping 2k for a tech to come is honestly a last resort, and probably not a feasable solution at that. I have adjusted the saturation bars to make the printer at least usable, but jobs for companies with pantones is out of the question for this printer at least. I am a complete newb, but am quite computer savvy. I kind of got thrown to the wolves with this task haha. any help would be appriciated!!!!!!! and pictures of proofs, methods, any resource the community needs to aid me in this problem i will be glad to provide as well. temp and humidity are controlled, and also this problem has come up within the last month. the printer was out of service for quite some time before i started here due to and encoder laser problem, so i have already made leaps and bounds from where i started haha. but now I really have to dial in the color consistency. Ive also tried aligning the ICC profiles with the profiles Adobe imbeds in our .tiffs to no avail...if anything the green came out brighter with that method. Help!!!!!! i know you all have a wealth of knowledge, help a newbie get some job security! Smiley
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-05-2012 - 09:54 AM
Post: #2
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

come on legion of print techs, work your magic.
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Offline M@CK Posted 07-05-2012 - 12:25 PM
Post: #3
Member
19 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3
Printer(s):
Mimaki JV3-250SPF, HP LX610

I use the JVS triangle inks also, and I never had the issue you are describing.

First question is what RIP you use.
Do you send your images in cmyk or rgb ?

If you use Onyx then you can MAYBE try to adjust only the densities visually in a new "profile".

The only thing I can think of is to custom profile... Sorry to tell you this, and that requires a spectrophotometer, theirs lots of used one on Ebay cheaper than 2k.
One more thing how long have the inks ben sitting around ?
Maybe the ink as gone bad ?
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-05-2012 - 12:43 PM
Post: #4
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

Generally all files are sent back as an .eps in cmyk. inks are fresh and have been replinished within the last month. looking into a spectrometer, as the 2k (1,800 actually) were the quotes to have a tech come up from atlanta to build a profile for us with a spec. Ive checked into a few that are around 1k online today. its really odd EVERY ICC creates this, even though our input ICC's from adobe and onyx are matched, as well as usiing several different profiles to no different results. only using no icc profiles produces something anywhere close to the digital image, although still needs a fair amount of correction to be correct. and thanks for the response! this seems to be a really odd issue, as the tech i have been speaking with agrees. May have a remote diagnostic done tomorrow or monday, but would still like to be able to resolve this issue myself. always better to learn that have someone else do it!
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Offline M@CK Posted 07-05-2012 - 02:07 PM
Post: #5
Member
19 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3
Printer(s):
Mimaki JV3-250SPF, HP LX610

Sorry to answer you with more questions, but here goes.
How is the test draw from the machine ?
Did you try some of the test patterns in the service mode of the JV3 ?
In onyx when you open your job in preflight, try to print it without color management.
Its in the printer and media tab, drop down menu and make it all ICC Profiles Off.

let us know what are the results.
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-09-2012 - 06:03 AM
Post: #6
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

Test Draw looks good, only cyan head was missing but maybe only 4-6 squares. havent tried any of the other test patterns but will check today. Printing with all ICC's off is the only thing that yeilds a print anywhere remotely close to the digital render we are sending to onyx, although red is color shifted a bit heavy to the orange side. other than that the colors are fine. the real problem is when the profiles are turned on and everything starts going to hell
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-10-2012 - 01:49 AM
Post: #7
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

ztch10 - this doesn't sound like a printer issue. This sounds like a "messing around with too many settings to solve the problem" issue. Here's the cheat sheet.

1) Your input ICC profile in Onyx should always match your file's ICC profile. For testing use a tiff with embedded profile, make sure the Onyx input matches, (use the "Always Use Embedded Profile" setting) and then leave the hell alone. If you mess with it, you're wasting your time and effort.

2) Turn off all output adjustments. No sliders moved, no black/white points adjusted - turn it all off and leave it all well alone.
Don't mess. Stages 1) and 2) are the correct way to print on a well calibrated machine.

3) Your output profile.... welcome to your headache. Are you running an output profile specifically written for the media/ink combination you are printing on? I'm certain that you're not. So the RIP is sending the data that relates to the right colours on your output profiles media/ink combi, and your printer prints them. That's what it's supposed to do. Put an output profile in place that's accurate for your output media and your problem is gone - you'll have accurate colour.

Remember steps 1 and 2. Don't mess with the input side. If you have to tweak colours on the input side, you're not set up right.

You can try lots of stock profiles until you find one that's close enough for you if you're happy with just being close. OR if you want accurate, you need an accurate profile for each media/ink combi you use. If you need to be able to write your own get learning and spending on equipment, or if you want to short cut get a colour expert in. I hired Mike at Correct Color and it was worth every penny. I have a fire and forget system now. (Seriously - I'm a tiny print shop in the UK, and I flew Mike around the world to stay with us for a week. I got my money back in saved time and materials within a couple of months, and I would rather take a cheese grater to my danglies than go back to the random colour using stock profiles gets you!)

(Note: Output profiles are more than just the output ICC profile. That's the tiny bit of icing on the cake. The clever stuff in the output profile is what comes prior to the ICC. I tell you that so you don't waste your money sending away ICC patches printed with lousy ink settings, and buying postal ICC's that won't solve your problem.)

Ultimately get on amazon, buy Bruce Fraser's real world colour management, and read it until you understand it. £20 investment in your job. I guarantee your eyes will open as to exactly what the RIP is doing with colour and it'll all seem so much easier after that!
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-19-2012 - 06:39 AM
Post: #8
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

First, here are a few picstures of the prints we are getting. the test image I have been using is the left half of the first image.
http://ittrainingtips.iu.edu/wp-content/...signer.gif
now, for the prints. the only prints that have come out with any grey tone are printed with no profiles on and no color management. all the rest of the images have some sort of profile or management on them. All our input ICC's match. Using Tiffs with embeded ICC. welcome to my nightmare community! luckily we have another 160 that is running perfect (for the moment *knocks on wood*), but as you can see this is quite frustrating. also, note the orange tone where bold red should be. The only profile that was anywhere close (but not close at all) was the ssv 1x6, and we run a 2x4 setup, so theres that i guess....lol. Also, you can see profiles or any color adjustment ive done noted underneath each print. Thanks again yall, i know this is tedious but i appriciate the heck out of this community!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rf8dm9vqe0lel1...1%20PM.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zqkil20ur38mc...0%20PM.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hq6rgp6m6kdy0g...5%20PM.jpg

Also, said test image is actually red in the center, slightly different from the one i posted (NOT orange). We were focusing on the red due to it haveing the most color shift, apart from our greys being well, green.
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2012 06:41 AM by ztch10.)
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-19-2012 - 06:55 AM
Post: #9
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

What does CMYK, ICC Embedded, EPS mean in the 1st jpg ??
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-19-2012 - 07:46 AM
Post: #10
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

just a note to myself about the image i was sending back to keep up with everything. thats just a proof from our office printer but i sent back an .ai and a .pdf as well. all the proofs in the picture are from the .eps TIFF though.
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-19-2012 - 08:07 AM
Post: #11
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

Is the file you are printing an .eps or a .tif ?
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-19-2012 - 08:14 AM
Post: #12
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

I have been sending back the .eps files.

sorry to be confusing, the image was a tiff and then was send back as an .eps. that didnt make sense after i read it haha
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2012 08:15 AM by ztch10.)
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-19-2012 - 10:31 AM
Post: #13
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

I still don't know the answer. Is the file you are opening in onyx an .eps or a .tif
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Offline ztch10 Posted 07-19-2012 - 10:35 AM
Post: #14
Member
8 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
postershop 7.2
Printer(s):
two Mimaki JV3-160SP

its an eps
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-19-2012 - 11:15 AM
Post: #15
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

(07-19-2012 10:35 AM)ztch10 Wrote:  its an eps

Ok. So to be safe, go back to my original post, and work with a flat tiff with embedded icc profile.

(07-19-2012 10:35 AM)ztch10 Wrote:  its an eps

Ok. So to be safe, go back to my original post, and work with a flat tiff with embedded icc profile.
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2012 11:16 AM by Fingers.)
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Offline Correct Color Posted 07-20-2012 - 08:31 PM
Post: #16
Frequent Flyer
128 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

"One runs on factory cartidges, and the other runs a JVS Triangle Bulk ink system. The latter of the two is the printer i am having issues with."

That's your problem. And it's as simple as that.

Well, that and you really need to get someone out there to teach you about color management.

But just very basically, your stock printer profiles weren't made for that inkset. So naturally for that reason, that inkset doesn't print correctly when you use them. All --and I do mean all-- the other stuff you're doing is just so much tail chasing.

This is your problem. Have custom profiles made for your machine and your ink and your media, and learn what color spaces are and how to understand and use them, and your issues will go away.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2012 08:32 PM by Correct Color.)
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Offline Douglas Posted 07-23-2012 - 05:36 AM
Post: #17
Onyx Graphics
87 Posts
Onyx Graphics

Onyx Version:
All
Printer(s):
Varies

As others have already stated the problem is that the third party inks are not the inks for which Onyx created the print modes for the JV3, so they are not valid for your print conditions. Its also worth mentioning that those print modes were created somewhere around version 6.x (2005-ish) and much has changed. There have a been an incredible amount of improvements in our profiling tools since that time, but unfortunately we are only able to profile new printers as we obtain them for driver development and this to date, has never included third party ink systems.

Doug Mackay
Engineering R&D Lab
ONYX - Simple. Innovative. Proven.
www.onyxgfx.com

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Offline Correct Color Posted 07-23-2012 - 07:54 AM
Post: #18
Frequent Flyer
128 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

Reading over this, I'd also just pit out that looking for a "tech" to resolve this issue, whether online or on site is a little misguided.

I know many printer technicians I recommend to clients who have mechanical problems or technical issues, but none of them are proficient in color management, and freely admit as much, which is why they recommend me to their clients with color management issues.

And what you have is most definitely color management issues.

Also note that while some techs can write "profiles", that writing a profile is something akin to tuning an engine. You can slap in some new spark plugs and call that a tune, or you can balance and blueprint an engine to squeeze every bit of performance out of it that it's got to give.

And that, as well as creating an entire color workflow, is just not something any printer tech I know understands how to do.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-24-2012 - 05:04 AM
Post: #19
Frequent Flyer
141 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

So to summarise what I, and others, have said:

"3) Your output profile.... Put an output profile in place that's accurate for your output media and your problem is gone - you'll have accurate colour."
(provided you also understand what to do with the input side. Learn this!)

"if you want to short cut get a colour expert in. I hired Mike at Correct Color and it was worth every penny."

"Output profiles are more than just the output ICC profile. The clever stuff in the output profile is what comes prior to the ICC. I tell you that so you don't waste your money sending away ICC patches printed with lousy ink settings, and buying postal ICC's that won't solve your problem."
(I can't stress this enough - understanding ink limiting, and recognising what ink combinations are doing is critical. I've made hundreds of output profiles and Mike's are still universally better than mine because he has far better knowledge and experience understanding what the colour patches are telling him.)

"get on amazon, buy Bruce Fraser's real world colour management, and read it until you understand it. £20 investment in your job. I guarantee your eyes will open as to exactly what the RIP is doing with colour and it'll all seem so much easier after that!"
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