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Print, Read, Next

Offline Douglas Posted 06-07-2013 - 07:14 AM
Post: #1
Onyx Graphics
87 Posts
Onyx Graphics

Onyx Version:
All
Printer(s):
Varies

Greetings ONYX Talk members

While I'm not able to participate here nearly as much as I'd like. There is an oft reoccurring comment that I feel compelled to address; That comment is the marketing phrase "Print, Read, Next" that ONYX introduced with the revamped Media Manager in version X10.

The purpose of the statement was to convey to the majority of users that several of the more challenging and/or inefficient steps had been simplified in X10 Media Manager. These changes, in large part made it possible for the average shop employee to get reasonable output with little fuss, or color science knowledge. That said, there are plenty of ways the average user can take the quality of their profiles to another level while also improving their skills.

So please, don't let anyone fool you into thinking you can't maximize your print characterizations on your own.

Let's consider Ink Restrictions. Being that Ink Restrictions are the foundation of a print characterization(Media Profile) you can learn a lot about your Ink + Media's potential gamut simply by viewing the measurements. In fact, you can view this data in multiple ways.

For example, you can plot each channels maximum Chroma(Color) and determine the Ink Volume at which that color stops increasing. Thus making 'informed' decisions that will affect final gamut.
Remember, presets are there to make it easy, not best. There simply isn't any realistic way to make presets that represent the literally thousands of ink/substrate/hardware combinations. Implied or not, that is not the intention of the presets and I'd guess most reasonable people acknowledge this.

If you need to know how to access the advanced functions, such as plotting the Chroma, please contact our support team @1.800.828.0723. Each of our reps has had training on advanced topics. And in the event they are stumped by your inquiries they have numerous resources that can assist them in assisting you. My self included.

You've also no doubt read here that ONYX doesn't provide any information beyond those three words. This too, simply isn't true.
On the topic of ONYX not explaining the software; I think to some extent this is a fair criticism. However, I believe much of this criticism is outdated and based solely on Legacy Ink Restrictions having been largely subjective and non-scientific.

Speaking specifically to the "Print, Read, Next" era, ONYX made numerous additions to the online help for X10. Including links to in-depth technical articles written by our color scientists. Who, incidentally, sit on the ICC board.
Additionally, much of the sidebar help was updated, particularly with regard to Ink Restricting and Ink Limiting. And finally, we provide numerous white papers and videos and are continually improving and updating them.

In closing I'd simply offer this, don't take everything you hear on the internet as fact, and consider what, if any motives are behind what you are being told. When in doubt go to the source.

1.800.828.0723
WWW.ONYXGFX.COM
ONYX on YOUTUBE

I'll try and make myself available when I can and I certainly won't hesitate to weigh in whenever I feel you are not getting complete or accurate information.

Best Regards,
Doug

Doug Mackay
Engineering R&D Lab
ONYX - Simple. Innovative. Proven.
www.onyxgfx.com

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Offline Scott Posted 06-09-2013 - 12:33 AM
Post: #2
OnyxTalk Admin
563 Posts
OnyxTalk Admin

Onyx Version:
N/A
Printer(s):
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Thanks Doug!

Your time and knowledge are always appreciated. I'm always happy to see some official reps from Onyx on here. Thanks again!

Scott Manwaring / Administrator
OnyxTalk.com - Global Support Community
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Offline Andy_warp Posted 07-15-2013 - 10:00 AM
Post: #3
Member
27 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
PH 10.2.5/Thrive 11.1
Printer(s):
EVO33, mimaki jv4-180

I've used the print read next process.
I absolutely love it! We are getting really good color, and consistency between our grand format machines.
We've recently moved over to onyx for dye sub from ergosoft. While the other rip had it's strengths, the workflow was pretty crappy. The transparency in a pdf workflow with onyx is awesome! We've had zero rendering problems.

We are however having some issues with our Mimaki. I think it's because of the readings I get in the very light yellows. It seems they are being corrupted by the fabric grain. I've yet to figure this out, and have been banging my head against my keyboard for a few months now.

It occurs in two places...vibrant greens and oranges, and also in areas where the image or color feathers out to white. We're getting this banding that is perpendicular to the print carriage. It's really nasty, and our only solution to date is adding noise to the image to break it up a little.
This never happened with our old rip (ergosoft) but it was using a smooth diffusion, and 540x360 resolution.
I've tried to re setup a profile mimicking this resolution and screen type, but haven't had any luck.

Right now we are running a stochastic screen at 720, and I'm wondering if it is too high of a resolution causing the problem. We run things all day in the hundreds of inches, so I thought bringing the resolution down my help.

I used to run ONYX on a standard HP 5000, and have never seen the type of problems I have from running grand format dye-sub.

Am I way off base here?

Thanks,
Andy McClendon
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2013 10:02 AM by Andy_warp.)
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Offline Douglas Posted 07-15-2013 - 10:50 AM
Post: #4
Onyx Graphics
87 Posts
Onyx Graphics

Onyx Version:
All
Printer(s):
Varies

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the positive feedback! As for the issues you are seeing, a couple things come to mind.

First, if haven't already done so, you may want to try the FDRP Enhanced diffusion dot pattern. Although it does take longer to process it sounds as though this may be more aligned to the Ergosoft configuration. You will "at minimum" need to print and read a new Calibration Swatch to test this, but I'd strongly suggest re-profiling if you determine FDRP to work better.

The other possibility is a problem with the Calibration readings. Often the inconsistent surface of the fabric combined with the dot pattern can result in drop-outs in the measurements, particularly for lighter colors/coverage (e.g. yellow).
With yellow, this may be causing some confusion as to what is "paper" white and what is ink. I'm keying on yellow, because it is often associated with bad paper measurements. And of course you mentioned greens and oranges. The potential loss of light dots may also be exacerbated when heat transferring the swatches from paper to polyester (Assuming you are not going direct to fabric).
If this is the source of the problem, it may be necessary to configure Media Manager to make two readings per patch and print two separate swatches (with one rotated 90°). What this accomplishes is to place each patch in slightly different orientation in relation to the fabric pattern and average the two readings.

I'm sorry I can't make a definitive diagnosis without the profile and media in front of me. If this doesn't help please contact our Support Team for further assistance.

Regards,
Doug
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2013 10:59 AM by Douglas.)

Doug Mackay
Engineering R&D Lab
ONYX - Simple. Innovative. Proven.
www.onyxgfx.com

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Offline Andy_warp Posted 07-15-2013 - 11:43 AM
Post: #5
Member
27 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
PH 10.2.5/Thrive 11.1
Printer(s):
EVO33, mimaki jv4-180

That sounds like a great idea! Sheen and the grain do affect the overall perception of the color. It's almost like the fabric's texture reads the shadows and throw gray into the mix. I know it's impossible to assess without seeing all of the pieces.
It never occurred to me to rotate the swatches!
Thanks for the great advice.


Andy
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Offline Andy_warp Posted 08-19-2013 - 09:20 AM
Post: #6
Member
27 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
PH 10.2.5/Thrive 11.1
Printer(s):
EVO33, mimaki jv4-180

Is it possible to tighten up the ink restrictions after an .icc profile has been created. I thought it may be a bad idea considering it is the step before printing all 2500 of the swatches.

I'd like to avoid rescanning, so just thought I'd ask...

Thanks in advance,
Andy
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Offline Douglas Posted 08-19-2013 - 09:44 AM
Post: #7
Onyx Graphics
87 Posts
Onyx Graphics

Onyx Version:
All
Printer(s):
Varies

Andy,


Its not advisable, because it affects everything downstream (Calibration, Ink Limit, ICC); In particular the Calibration and ICC are expecting the established ink amounts from the restriction.

Another option is to edit the ICC step, and lower the Total Ink Limit slider. What this does is adds an additional Ink Limit after the ICC patch measurements. Not what I'd consider a best practice, but its there to try and do what you are asking with minimal user effort.

However, if you feel like experimenting by lowering your Ink Restriction without re-doing all subsequent steps, I'd recommend making a copy of your media or print mode within the Media Library view, and experiment with the copy.

Doug

Doug Mackay
Engineering R&D Lab
ONYX - Simple. Innovative. Proven.
www.onyxgfx.com

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Offline Andy_warp Posted 08-19-2013 - 12:33 PM
Post: #8
Member
27 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
PH 10.2.5/Thrive 11.1
Printer(s):
EVO33, mimaki jv4-180

Pretty much what I thought. The profile is stellar, but it's right at the danger zone!

I'll have to limp by with it for now.

Thanks so much, Doug.

This site is an excellent resource, and I always appreciate the advice!

-Andy
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Offline Andy_warp Posted 11-03-2014 - 10:33 AM
Post: #9
Member
27 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
PH 10.2.5/Thrive 11.1
Printer(s):
EVO33, mimaki jv4-180

Been awhile since I've posted here. The FDRP profile is absolutely killing it! It's running at a delta e of less than 2 at average...nobody here thought that would be possible with dye sub.
I'm having some new issues with a brand new printer and hoped maybe someone could interject...We've upgraded from our Scitex to an EVO33. One of the main benefits is our shop is now 100% solvent free! Yay! The printer shipped with Caldera and the MFR flew me to their facility to train. They pushed Caldera on me for several days, and I have to say, that is what I'm having to run for the time being. I've built 3 different profiles in Thrive, and none are useable, which makes me really sad.
I'm getting decent spots, but am having some major issues in the shadows...I just can't get it to give me nice rich shadows, the UCR and GCR (and GCR plus) are giving me fits...no matter what I try, the blacks keeps coming in as key-ish, but I need rich shadows to roll with Onyx.
This is really killing us, because our workflow with Onyx has been absolutely great since we've icc profiled. Caldera has weak spot color tools, so I am kind of free floating until I can get my Thrive running correctly.
I know there are dozens of factors that can be giving me this problem, but I feel I've exploited about every one of them I can...
Any advice?
Thanks!
Andy
warp
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