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onyx color management input profiles.

Offline jens Posted 12-05-2008 - 06:57 AM
Post: #1
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73 Posts
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Onyx Version:

Printer(s):


hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?
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Offline jonkovach Posted 12-05-2008 - 10:46 AM
Post: #2
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320 Posts
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Onyx Version:
X11
Printer(s):
HP z6100, Mimaki JV33-160, HP Latex 370

You're getting a big dose of me today!!!! hahahaha

My input profiles are:
CMYK image & vector - 3m Matchprint
RGB image & vector - Adobe RGB 1998

I use the 3m profile because I found it to be the largest CMYK gamut that I can find for digital printing, which is my final output. You should decide on your profiles based on what your final output would be. Again, I'm not sure if I'm saying that 100% correct, but that is how I have undersood it.

The profiles should not cause any problems in PDF files. I've never heard of that happening.

Jon

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline Hotspur Posted 12-07-2008 - 11:58 AM
Post: #3
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173 Posts
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Onyx Version:
To Infinity & Beyond
Printer(s):
HPZ Latex UV Mutoh Canon Summa

Jon is correct (and not busy enough!) - transparency issues in PDFs are currently due to the introduction of CS3.

Onyx has a postscripting engine called "Jaws"

The interpretation handles the PDF - Postscipt behaviour.

Whenever an App. makes a slight change to the way it creates a PDF, the Onyx engine hopefully can cope with this - but often it can't & you get color problems in the Rip.

Currently a change in CS3 is not being handled by the Jaws Rip and Onyx have to rewrite the wrapper around the rip to cope with this change.

The time lag between these two events for us results in "lets post on onyxtalk to see if there is a fix" I'm afraid.

That's where we are now - it will be ever thus unless you stop using non-onyx applications to edit & submit files to the Rip.

If only Onyx invented a rival to Illustrator to edit & submit files with guaranteed WYSIWYG...available in Feb!
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Offline jens Posted 12-08-2008 - 05:33 AM
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i agree curve, but we need to stop it before it is printed( my boss is getting grey hair ! ). so maybe we can work around using a flattener ? If they plug in a flattener it would we verry useful. (Caldera RIP has a special button to rasterize the file.)
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Offline jonkovach Posted 12-08-2008 - 10:09 AM
Post: #5
Administrator
320 Posts
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Onyx Version:
X11
Printer(s):
HP z6100, Mimaki JV33-160, HP Latex 370

Not busy enough?? Geez, try to lending a helping hand and what do you get.... ridicule... Actually, posting and reading about this stuff really helps me get a full handle on everything Onyx is doing. I am a diehard Onyx supporter - so I like to make sure other people think highly of it, as well.

Perhaps try to go into your Job Properties in Preflight, to the PostScript tab, and turn your color table off. This will not flatten, but if you are having spot color issues, this will eliminate those. In addition to that, you can play with the RIP PostScript settings, as we discussed in a diferent topic.

What? What? A rival to Illustrator to be released by Onyx??? Tell me more!!!

Jon

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline Scott Posted 12-08-2008 - 12:40 PM
Post: #6
OnyxTalk Admin
563 Posts
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Onyx Version:
N/A
Printer(s):
N/A

jonkovach Wrote:What? What? A rival to Illustrator to be released by Onyx??? Tell me more!!!

I wouldn't say a full on rival to Illustrator, it just has many of the same capabilities so that operators and/or prepress technicians don't have to have Illustrator in order to prep/fix/tweak files.

Scott Manwaring / Administrator
OnyxTalk.com - Global Support Community
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Offline jonkovach Posted 12-08-2008 - 12:55 PM
Post: #7
Administrator
320 Posts
Administrator

Onyx Version:
X11
Printer(s):
HP z6100, Mimaki JV33-160, HP Latex 370

So this would be an add-on for Onyx, more or less? Or a separate stand alone application? Is it feasible to think that I will have customers laying out files in this software? Or will this simply be a tool for prepress?

Jon

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline Scott Posted 12-08-2008 - 02:07 PM
Post: #8
OnyxTalk Admin
563 Posts
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Onyx Version:
N/A
Printer(s):
N/A

jonkovach Wrote:Or will this simply be a tool for prepress?

Stand alone app for prepress only. Stand alone in that it is RIP independent, however...If you use it with Onyx then it works more closely with the RIP. It will pull in your quicksets, and printer info so you can submit directly to RipQueue.

Scott Manwaring / Administrator
OnyxTalk.com - Global Support Community
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Offline jesse Posted 01-27-2009 - 08:12 AM
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Printer(s):


Prep Edge is what they're calling it, I think.

In my experience, a large part of transparency failing is due to color management. If you turn off all input profiles, overprint tends to work correctly. Of course, ymmv.

ProductionHouse 7.2.?, HP 5500ps, Two HP Z6100 60ps's, i1XT, ProfileMaker 5.0.8
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Offline Scott Posted 01-27-2009 - 08:58 AM
Post: #10
OnyxTalk Admin
563 Posts
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Onyx Version:
N/A
Printer(s):
N/A

Yes, PrepEdge Pro is the name.

Scott Manwaring / Administrator
OnyxTalk.com - Global Support Community
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Offline jens Posted 01-28-2009 - 01:45 AM
Post: #11
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73 Posts
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Onyx Version:

Printer(s):


One problem of transparancy can be fixed by setting the rendering intents the same.
( vector and image ) I think it has to do whith the calculating of the colors. Not the input profiles! but rendering intents. I tried this with onyx and this form of transparancy is ok now,
same issue with caldera an wasatch...
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Offline jesse Posted 01-28-2009 - 06:03 AM
Post: #12
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Nice catch!

Problem for us though regarding CM and overprint is the whole "not compliant with PDF/X spec" issue. CM shouldn't matter at all. When a PDF/X is RIPped, the RIP should honor the input, RI's, and output intent in the PDF itself, and then map the results to your media space. (This is a whole other issue, but where I found that turning off input profiles got better results)

Thanks for pointing that out. :¬)

ProductionHouse 7.2.?, HP 5500ps, Two HP Z6100 60ps's, i1XT, ProfileMaker 5.0.8
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Offline jonkovach Posted 01-28-2009 - 01:45 PM
Post: #13
Administrator
320 Posts
Administrator

Onyx Version:
X11
Printer(s):
HP z6100, Mimaki JV33-160, HP Latex 370

Have you tried converting all spots to process? That is not the most desirable solution, either, but it does work in most cases....
Jon

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline Correct Color Posted 02-06-2010 - 07:33 AM
Post: #14
Frequent Flyer
128 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

(12-05-2008 06:57 AM)jens Wrote:  hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?

Honestly...No.

What input profiles do is tell the RIP what color space to expect your incoming files to have been created in. It's what I call the "front end" of color management. If your input space aren't correct and consistent all through your workflow, you'll have unexpected color shifts, but transparency problems are another issue.

Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline virtu Posted 02-08-2010 - 03:03 AM
Post: #15
Frequent Flyer
127 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Hi,

Like Mike i say: choose the profile of your file as your input profile. Solves most of your problems.
The INPUT PROFILE = Tells Onyx what colors is in the file that you might print, how is the file seperated,..Greys,...

Convert the file if needed.

virtu
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Offline Ozprint Posted 09-17-2010 - 04:10 PM
Post: #16
Member
31 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X10.2 (Testing Thrive)
Printer(s):
Epson 30600, 50600, 70600, T7000,250GT,350XT,550GT

(02-06-2010 07:33 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  
(12-05-2008 06:57 AM)jens Wrote:  hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?

Honestly...No.

What input profiles do is tell the RIP what color space to expect your incoming files to have been created in. It's what I call the "front end" of color management. If your input space aren't correct and consistent all through your workflow, you'll have unexpected color shifts, but transparency problems are another issue.

Mike Adams
Correct Color

The transparency problem is linked.

Transparency layers in the pdf will disable input profiles in the rip.

From then on it is all lost as far as colour accuracy goes regardless how diligent you were with your settings.

Test a flattened file vs a layered one and you will see the difference.
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 09-21-2010 - 06:31 AM
Post: #17
Frequent Flyer
222 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
ALL
Printer(s):
ALL

(09-17-2010 04:10 PM)Ozprint Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 07:33 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  
(12-05-2008 06:57 AM)jens Wrote:  hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?

Honestly...No.

What input profiles do is tell the RIP what color space to expect your incoming files to have been created in. It's what I call the "front end" of color management. If your input space aren't correct and consistent all through your workflow, you'll have unexpected color shifts, but transparency problems are another issue.

Mike Adams
Correct Color

The transparency problem is linked.

Transparency layers in the pdf will disable input profiles in the rip.

From then on it is all lost as far as colour accuracy goes regardless how diligent you were with your settings.

Test a flattened file vs a layered one and you will see the difference.

Transparency problems are always linked to color management. Simply because (technically) transparency and color management don't go together. Turn off all your input profiles and you will see that transparencies and masks get printed correctly.

A RIP engine has to render a transparent object with a certain color and applies the color management to it. Then on the next layer is another object, which lays under the transparent object. Then it has to calculate the color of that layer and adjust the color of the first layer in order to multiply the colors. Things go very wrong when the same layer also contains a mask. Applications like Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator let you design and do things which are a compilation of transparencies, masks and color blends. We call those things a drop shadow, but for a RIP it is a collection of layers with all kind of funky parameters. For example: a gradient of Pantone colors is also a technically impossible thing for a color managed 'Input-to-CMYK-output' workflows, but Illustrator and InDesign let you make them.

In fact: a RIP that prints color managed transparencies does something impossible ;-).

What most RIP engines do is that they flatten the image before they apply the color management. The problem always is to decide what comes first: color management or rasterizing a transparency. Rasterizing transparencies cost time and might lead to resolution issue (because it becomes a bitmap).

ONYX will provide a fix for this issue in 10.1. I don't know a release date yet, but ONYX will let us know.
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Offline Ozprint Posted 09-21-2010 - 12:34 PM
Post: #18
Member
31 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X10.2 (Testing Thrive)
Printer(s):
Epson 30600, 50600, 70600, T7000,250GT,350XT,550GT

(09-21-2010 06:31 AM)MarcoRoos Wrote:  
(09-17-2010 04:10 PM)Ozprint Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 07:33 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  
(12-05-2008 06:57 AM)jens Wrote:  hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?

Honestly...No.

What input profiles do is tell the RIP what color space to expect your incoming files to have been created in. It's what I call the "front end" of color management. If your input space aren't correct and consistent all through your workflow, you'll have unexpected color shifts, but transparency problems are another issue.

Mike Adams
Correct Color

The transparency problem is linked.

Transparency layers in the pdf will disable input profiles in the rip.

From then on it is all lost as far as colour accuracy goes regardless how diligent you were with your settings.

Test a flattened file vs a layered one and you will see the difference.

Transparency problems are always linked to color management. Simply because (technically) transparency and color management don't go together. Turn off all your input profiles and you will see that transparencies and masks get printed correctly.

A RIP engine has to render a transparent object with a certain color and applies the color management to it. Then on the next layer is another object, which lays under the transparent object. Then it has to calculate the color of that layer and adjust the color of the first layer in order to multiply the colors. Things go very wrong when the same layer also contains a mask. Applications like Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator let you design and do things which are a compilation of transparencies, masks and color blends. We call those things a drop shadow, but for a RIP it is a collection of layers with all kind of funky parameters. For example: a gradient of Pantone colors is also a technically impossible thing for a color managed 'Input-to-CMYK-output' workflows, but Illustrator and InDesign let you make them.

In fact: a RIP that prints color managed transparencies does something impossible ;-).

What most RIP engines do is that they flatten the image before they apply the color management. The problem always is to decide what comes first: color management or rasterizing a transparency. Rasterizing transparencies cost time and might lead to resolution issue (because it becomes a bitmap).

ONYX will provide a fix for this issue in 10.1. I don't know a release date yet, but ONYX will let us know.

Thank you Marco for spelling out what Onyx so far fail to acknowledge!

As far as we have experienced this is not a new problem for Onyx and to release a new software "redesigned from the ground up" that the has the same/similar issues as all the other ones is a mayor embarrassment as far as we are concerned. To not acknowledge it just makes it that much worse!

Also, if the only work around is to flatten files prior to colour management, say so!

Don't market this as something that is supposed to handle transparency layers because it is simply not true.

To ask people to turn off profiles to get them to print in the wrong colour may be Onyx mantra but only one that a sales/marketing person can come up with?

Marco, not sure why you are fighting Onyx battles apart from explaining to us that what they are trying to do is impossible, in simple terms?

Would though be interested in your suggested work around for successfully printing supplied PDFs from clients with transparency layers? This until the point when Onyx release a version that works?

Looking back at history it may take a while?
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Offline MarcoRoos Posted 09-21-2010 - 12:54 PM
Post: #19
Frequent Flyer
222 Posts
Frequent Flyer

Onyx Version:
ALL
Printer(s):
ALL

(09-21-2010 12:34 PM)Ozprint Wrote:  
(09-21-2010 06:31 AM)MarcoRoos Wrote:  
(09-17-2010 04:10 PM)Ozprint Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 07:33 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  
(12-05-2008 06:57 AM)jens Wrote:  hello i was wondering what the the input files are with you guys

mine are:

cmyk image : isocoated V2_eci.icc ( based on fogra 27 )
cmyk vector : isocoated V2_eci.icc
RGB image: eciRGB V2.icc
RGB vector: eciRGB V2.icc

based on www.eci.org

could the input profiles cause some transparancy problems in pdf files ?
anyone ?

Honestly...No.

What input profiles do is tell the RIP what color space to expect your incoming files to have been created in. It's what I call the "front end" of color management. If your input space aren't correct and consistent all through your workflow, you'll have unexpected color shifts, but transparency problems are another issue.

Mike Adams
Correct Color

The transparency problem is linked.

Transparency layers in the pdf will disable input profiles in the rip.

From then on it is all lost as far as colour accuracy goes regardless how diligent you were with your settings.

Test a flattened file vs a layered one and you will see the difference.

Transparency problems are always linked to color management. Simply because (technically) transparency and color management don't go together. Turn off all your input profiles and you will see that transparencies and masks get printed correctly.

A RIP engine has to render a transparent object with a certain color and applies the color management to it. Then on the next layer is another object, which lays under the transparent object. Then it has to calculate the color of that layer and adjust the color of the first layer in order to multiply the colors. Things go very wrong when the same layer also contains a mask. Applications like Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator let you design and do things which are a compilation of transparencies, masks and color blends. We call those things a drop shadow, but for a RIP it is a collection of layers with all kind of funky parameters. For example: a gradient of Pantone colors is also a technically impossible thing for a color managed 'Input-to-CMYK-output' workflows, but Illustrator and InDesign let you make them.

In fact: a RIP that prints color managed transparencies does something impossible ;-).

What most RIP engines do is that they flatten the image before they apply the color management. The problem always is to decide what comes first: color management or rasterizing a transparency. Rasterizing transparencies cost time and might lead to resolution issue (because it becomes a bitmap).

ONYX will provide a fix for this issue in 10.1. I don't know a release date yet, but ONYX will let us know.

Thank you Marco for spelling out what Onyx so far fail to acknowledge!

As far as we have experienced this is not a new problem for Onyx and to release a new software "redesigned from the ground up" that the has the same/similar issues as all the other ones is a mayor embarrassment as far as we are concerned. To not acknowledge it just makes it that much worse!

Also, if the only work around is to flatten files prior to colour management, say so!

Don't market this as something that is supposed to handle transparency layers because it is simply not true.

To ask people to turn off profiles to get them to print in the wrong colour may be Onyx mantra but only one that a sales/marketing person can come up with?

Marco, not sure why you are fighting Onyx battles apart from explaining to us that what they are trying to do is impossible, in simple terms?

Would though be interested in your suggested work around for successfully printing supplied PDFs from clients with transparency layers? This until the point when Onyx release a version that works?

Looking back at history it may take a while?

I am not fighting ONYX battles since this happens to all RIP software once in a while, when a new version comes out. Secondly it is not an ONYX issue: it is a JAWS issue in combination with color management. JAWS is not from ONYX but from Global Graphics and for all fixes and incompatibility issues ONYX has to wait for their solution. Like every other RIP manufacturer in the world.

I thought that the function of this forum is to share information. What I tell here is not how ONYX works, but how PDF transparencies and color management work, since that is the topic. I am also not saying that what ONYX is doing is impossible, I am saying it is a hell of a job to keep up. I am not defending ONYX, that's not my job. I run a global training and research facility and try to help Scott with this great forum since I think it is a great initiative to gather and share knowledge with people that are interested to learn about the ins and outs of our industry.

I share your frustration about this issue and I think it shouldn't be back and certainly not in the severe way we're facing it, but: complaining about it doesn't help, since I know they're working really hard to get it solved. So I thought to kill some time by explaining what is going on.

But back to your question:
Workarounds that sometimes help are:
1. Print from Acrobat Reader to the ONYX Virtual Printer Driver
2. Avoid saving PDF files from InDesign. A lot of PDF engines do have issues with PDF files from InDesign. Create a PDF with Acrobat Professional instead and try to save it in a low version.

Ciao!
Marco
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Offline Ozprint Posted 09-21-2010 - 01:47 PM
Post: #20
Member
31 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X10.2 (Testing Thrive)
Printer(s):
Epson 30600, 50600, 70600, T7000,250GT,350XT,550GT

Thank you, Marco!

We will try your suggestions and I agree with your views on the forum.

What I was trying to point out is the disconnect between Marketing and Reality.

I believe we should complain about that and I trust you do too???

It took us three weeks to find this issue and another week to isolate what it was.

Every time it costs us time and money.

For me it is difficult to understand why an old problem like this is not found prior to a major release?

When it is found, acknowledge it and issue the recommended work around.

So far this is has not been done so therefor I asked for your advise at the same time alerting fellow forum visitors about this problem.

Thank you again for responding and doing the work that Onyx should be doing!
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2010 02:08 PM by Ozprint.)
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Offline walter_cfl Posted 01-20-2011 - 05:34 PM
Post: #21
Member
55 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X11, X12
Printer(s):
Latex, UV, LED-UV

The patch is out, try it.

http://d2fxlurg0z68o0.cloudfront.net/10...._Patch.exe

not 100%, but should solve few bugs mentioned above.
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Offline Ozprint Posted 01-20-2011 - 05:37 PM
Post: #22
Member
31 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X10.2 (Testing Thrive)
Printer(s):
Epson 30600, 50600, 70600, T7000,250GT,350XT,550GT

(01-20-2011 05:34 PM)walter_cfl Wrote:  The patch is out, try it.

http://d2fxlurg0z68o0.cloudfront.net/10...._Patch.exe

not 100%, but should solve few bugs mentioned above.

WE have not found out yet what is not 100% and we have been running the patch for months!

Now it works like it always should have.

If you find any flaws with this please let us all know.
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Offline walter_cfl Posted 01-20-2011 - 06:56 PM
Post: #23
Member
55 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
X11, X12
Printer(s):
Latex, UV, LED-UV

Ah, i see.

You sound very much confident now, that's good. This post have not been update since your last comment, so i'm thinking posting this link just like to let other know about progress.

not 100% because of the "Known issues", any one using this patch should check out the release notes to avoid disappointment.
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Offline OnyxTEST Posted 01-21-2011 - 12:26 AM
Post: #24
Member
25 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
11.1
Printer(s):
Mimaki *

Where to take last variant of the full version of a fitter?
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