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Onyx CMM vs i1 Profiler

Offline virtu Posted 05-08-2013 - 12:41 AM
Post: #1
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Hi,

Can someone tell me what is the difference in those 2 CMM's ?

I need to buy a new i1pro2 because my old i1 is broken. I am not sure if i should buy i1profiler software with all its features because i have Onyx for creating profiles, i calibrate my monitors with basiccolor display.

virtu
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Offline T.Schruda Posted 05-12-2013 - 08:40 PM
Post: #2
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35 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
z3200

then just stick to onyx.. profiler wont be better
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Offline virtu Posted 05-13-2013 - 12:28 PM
Post: #3
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

The i1pro2 supports different measurement modes (M0,M1 and M2), does onyx support those modes or does onyx only support M0 UV-included legacy mode ?
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2013 12:28 PM by virtu.)
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Offline Scott Martin Posted 09-04-2013 - 05:57 AM
Post: #4
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7 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
GS6000, Surecolor S70, other Epsons and Canons...

I think it depends - what print are your profiling? For the GS6000 I'm seeing better results with the ONYX engine with CMYKOG profiling. With the Surecolor S70 I'm seeing better results with i1Profiler in the CMYKO profiling mode.

Scott Martin
http://www.on-sight.com
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Offline Pauly Posted 04-26-2016 - 03:25 PM
Post: #5
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I know this thread is a little old, But some input doesn't hurt.

The i1 Profiler software create a good ICC profile. Really smooth. Good amount of options, for patches (create your own set or use the IT8 or ECI2002 provided)

I've had better results from the i1p than using onyx engine on an UV CMYK printer.
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Offline OnyxTEST Posted 05-08-2016 - 08:01 AM
Post: #6
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25 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
11.1
Printer(s):
Mimaki *

The device is best I1Pro2.
I1Profiler Onyx and give an excellent result, most importantly the right to set the parameters.
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Offline Pauly Posted 05-10-2016 - 08:38 AM
Post: #7
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I could be wrong here. But I think onyx uses a reference profile to create its output profiles. Similar to Basiccolor when using a much larger reference colour space than what the printer can reproduce.

When testing out Basiccolor, I tried a few different size reference profiles to create the output profile. When using a profile way larger than what the printer can reproduce, it had troubles hitting really deep reds. Very similar to what onyx was giving me. When I used a smaller reference profile, similar size to what the printer can reproduce. It was hitting the deeper reds a lot better with other colours also.

I have not tried onyx with a printer with a larger gamut, as I don't have one. But from seeing others results. I think that might be the case.

I1profiler, on no matter what material or how big the gamut. It will do its best to hit every colour possible.
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Offline MaxGamut Posted 05-12-2016 - 10:33 AM
Post: #8
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21 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
HP L26500, Canon iPF9000

Reference profile? What is that?
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Offline Pauly Posted 05-19-2016 - 05:18 PM
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Basiccolor can use a reference profile to match your printer to another profile.
For example: If my printer prints at CGATS21_CRPC5 and i want another printer with a much larger gamut range to print exactly like the other printer. I'll use the CGATS21_CRPC5 as a reference profile so it can match the printer to it.

if that makes any sense.
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Offline MaxGamut Posted 05-27-2016 - 08:45 AM
Post: #10
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21 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
HP L26500, Canon iPF9000

Aha, OK.
So Onyx only uses the reference profile (sometimes called simulation profile or target simulation) if you set it. It is a special functionality for CMYK offset proofing on digital printers...
Otherwise these is no reason to use it.

What your problem maybe is - all CMYK data has its "offset press nature" because all standard CMYK ICC profiles represent some "average offset press machine" - colors are limited to offset capabilities.
I.e. you CMYK data is not and cannot be super saturated...
(more detail - look at my answer in the other thread Smiley )
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Offline Pauly Posted 05-27-2016 - 03:21 PM
Post: #11
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I could be wrong about that, but I feel it used 3M Match Print profile. I made a thread about it. As all the profiles in the system match that profile and their standard profiles inside the states I.e DefaultCMYK DefaultCMYKO ect are all 3M Match Print.
This is how I feel about i anyway as I've not seen any OEM large gamut profile nice and saturated.
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Offline MaxGamut Posted 06-10-2016 - 01:13 PM
Post: #12
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21 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
HP L26500, Canon iPF9000

Hi Pauly,

CONFIRMED !
I once again had o look at the old profile you sent me once... and I can confirm - Onyx profiling engine definitely uses quite different delta E criteria to decide where to map the out-of-gamut colors.

To me it looks like Onyx uses the "classical way" where lightness and hue are significantly preferred before saturation. Mapping of most colors I have checked is towards the grey axis, preserving the lightness and color tone, and sacrificing chroma- they simply made a "tone-respecting" mapping.

With your dense cyan and magenta, gamut mapping is probably hitting the gamut boundary "above" the optimal mid-range with the highest chroma - that´s why you get that 2/78/88/0 as full red.
ISO Coated 100/100 Red Lab coordinates are 47/68/48 .... and yours are 38/72/47 - as you can see a/b coordinates are very similar (chroma is there!), but L (aka lightness) is full 9 points lower.
With your white point at 95 and black point at 11 this is .... 10,7% darker than ideal !!! As Onyx is mapping at the similar lightness, it is simply not hitting the full red, but a color around 11% higher - a color with approximately same L !!!

A quick double check - looking at your 0/80/90/0 red Lab coordinates: 46/68/46 - WOW, how is this similar to ISO Coated 100/100 Red (47/68/48) !!!! And that is the region Onyx profile is hitting.

Outcome? Until there is no new option in Onyx to choose between classical and some more vivid mappings, Onyx will probably never satisfy you with such special media you have - it´s gamut mapping is good for media with similar lightness range and inks with similar density. Sad

Good luck with i1 Profiler !
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Offline Pauly Posted 06-13-2016 - 03:09 PM
Post: #13
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I might have to send you another one to look at.

I'm pretty sure the one i sent you was on our stock paper. (no real OBAs in it)
I
Interesting findings though, I think it's more the ink itself, it is quite 'dark' when comparing it to the pantone CMYK.
Yes it does do some strange things with my colour.

Then again, I have a sample sitting here done on another printer, Same as mine, just older model (slower and less heads)
I've been told their profiles are done in onyx and The reds look brilliant + very contrasty.
I can tell you it's not been done in i1p as it uses "intelligent black" where it adds black to 'protect the gamut of your printer'
And looking at the 2 prints together, mine has a grainy black look when close up, where the other is more smooth in the dark red areas, telling me that CMY is used with no K to get the reds.
i1p doesn't really like to hit those colours with out K.
I have been told it's done on onyx by a few people and i cannot remember what the operator told me (early last year) but we briefly spoke about it.

Later today i'll create a new ICC with onyx with a few settings (classic, vivid, enhanced ect) with and with out chroma boost and send them to you to have a look what it does.

Edit:
I'm pretty sure i have tried to "trick" onyx thinking i have lighter inks by heavy restriction. But it went worse, the colours hit the same colours, but lighter so to speak.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016 03:20 PM by Pauly.)
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Offline MaxGamut Posted 06-20-2016 - 07:38 AM
Post: #14
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21 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
HP L26500, Canon iPF9000

I can tell you it's not been done in i1p as it uses "intelligent black" where it adds black to 'protect the gamut of your printer'

And looking at the 2 prints together, mine has a grainy black look when close up, where the other is more smooth in the dark red areas, telling me that CMY is used with no K to get the reds.


Paul,
adding black (GCR) is a fully controllable process - if you are not satisfied with grain then Black Start and/or Black Width can make miracles.
Normally mixing K instead of C in the dark colors is very OK, and should not be visible. Even in the mids K-grain should not be visible (from 40/30/30/0 or so). If you see grain in deep colors something else is probably wrong. Maybe overall too much ink - inks are not able to mix well... (I assume you printer is capable at least 600dpi).

Looking at you dark inks - your C is so dark that it is capable of doing near the same job as black is doing.
0/100/100/30 ........ 25.9 / 49.7 / 27.4
30/100/100/0 ........ 26,3 / 50.6 / 26.9 - lightness and chroma very similar Smiley

or even Smiley
0/100/100/60 ........ 12.8 / 21.5 / 5.3
60/100/100/0 ........ 16.3 / 25.9 / 4.1

Maybe, some strange things are done by Onyx advanced Ink-Limiting... Your settings could be not optimal. Look at the very dark red - adding 90% K makes the color lighter than adding 90% C. That definitely is strange and sub-optimal... Sad

0/100/100/90 ........ 11.4 / 9.5 / 0.4 (pure 90%K has L = 17.1 )
90/100/100/0 ........ 8.7 / 13.4 / -4.2 (pure 90%C has L = 50.4)


Thanks for the new stuff you sent me!
When you finally have some good measurement for your glass, send it to me (all the Onyx stuff as last time). I will look at the data, maybe some idea will "enlighten" me.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 08:12 AM by MaxGamut.)
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Offline Pauly Posted 06-20-2016 - 03:42 PM
Post: #15
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I have been playing with the blacks a lot, some difference, not a lot. It was more or less the reds where lighter than mine comparing the 2.

I've been playing with "manipulated" charts (i use the Barbieri charts, instead of creating my own with i1p. Mostly it8, eci2002 or their own patch set)
I'd adjust some patch colours in photoshop, print them read and create using same settings. Some interesting results. Created some vivid profiles and such.

Then i tried to bring this with the onyx engine. I remember printing a 3rd party onyx chart once and it coming out all odd colours, so i found that chart and printed it off - read - measure - create.

It was interesting. It finally produced red. but it didn't the rest any good.

Target files are here:
http://www.vistalogics.com/onyx-barbieri-support.html


For what ever reason they're in a RGB format instead of CMYK. obviously this is wrong, but i had to try it out.
From printing that chart and seeing what the output is, i could probably create a chart that onyx might understand and get something decent out of it. But that will be done in spare time.

I have a 'good' glass profile at the moment, but the colour space isn't 'smooth' so it needs work. But so far it's doing great
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