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ICC profiling software recommendations

Offline Pauly Posted 10-08-2015 - 07:46 PM
Post: #1
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Looks like i need some software that is more capable than the internal ICC profiling tool inside onyx.

All it needs to do is create and edit profiles.

Any recommendations would be great!

At the moment, been looking at the "heidelberg color toolbox"


Thanks.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 07:47 PM by Pauly.)
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Offline virtu Posted 10-08-2015 - 10:28 PM
Post: #2
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Hello Pauly,

I have read a few of your posts and i can tell you the following to solve most of your problems:

- Onyx has all the tool that you need for creating profiles (at your level of knowledge)
- You need to learn the basics of creating a media and create a good profile.

Dont get me wrong, but you seem to read a lot, try a lot, but there are some basics missings. As i read in a former of your posts, you printed your icc-patch with all profiles turned on.

That is a very BIG mistake. All your profiles that you created with that settings are WRONG and its not Onyx's fault. Of course there are better and more expensive tools then Onyx. But as far as you miss some of the basics, it will be a waste of money to buy new software or hardware.

Maybe you should hire someone to teach you how to create a profile with Onyx, step by step.
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-09-2015 - 02:56 PM
Post: #3
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

Yes, Onyx has good calibration and profiling tools.

But I can see what Pauly is after - ICC profile analysis.
He´s got glass - an exotic media. Onyx is generally good for standard and for quality media. In Onyx it´s not possible to analyze what´s going on if something is wrong. One simply does not see "what is inside the box". And with exotic media there are MANY things to analyze....

From what I have seen/read I can really recommend the ProfileMaker 5 - it is a "very analytical" toolbox.
(if possible buy it even from second-hand)

You can also check this:
http://www.color.org/profilingtools.xalter
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2015 02:59 PM by Mikulas.)
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-11-2015 - 02:46 PM
Post: #4
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

(10-08-2015 10:28 PM)virtu Wrote:  Hello Pauly,

I have read a few of your posts and i can tell you the following to solve most of your problems:

- Onyx has all the tool that you need for creating profiles (at your level of knowledge)
- You need to learn the basics of creating a media and create a good profile.

Dont get me wrong, but you seem to read a lot, try a lot, but there are some basics missings. As i read in a former of your posts, you printed your icc-patch with all profiles turned on.

That is a very BIG mistake. All your profiles that you created with that settings are WRONG and its not Onyx's fault. Of course there are better and more expensive tools then Onyx. But as far as you miss some of the basics, it will be a waste of money to buy new software or hardware.

Maybe you should hire someone to teach you how to create a profile with Onyx, step by step.

Hello virtu

I create my icc out on onyx and print with the icc all off. i had an issue and i believe it was the chart. That method wasn't great i was trying anyway as it still used the onyx icc generator.

(10-09-2015 02:56 PM)Mikulas Wrote:  Yes, Onyx has good calibration and profiling tools.

But I can see what Pauly is after - ICC profile analysis.
He´s got glass - an exotic media. Onyx is generally good for standard and for quality media. In Onyx it´s not possible to analyze what´s going on if something is wrong. One simply does not see "what is inside the box". And with exotic media there are MANY things to analyze....

From what I have seen/read I can really recommend the ProfileMaker 5 - it is a "very analytical" toolbox.
(if possible buy it even from second-hand)

You can also check this:
http://www.color.org/profilingtools.xalter

I've searched up profile maker 5 and it's out of date? They're recommending i publish pro 2 but i believe that's a whole kit? I know Oce in melbourne are a supplier of xrite also.

I've seen the colour.org tool chart. It was very helpful in finding products.
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-12-2015 - 08:46 AM
Post: #5
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

ProfileMaker5 is end-of-life and old, but not obsolete. With luck you can find something on ebay.
It is much more "open" that everything other I have seen.

i1 publish pro 2 is a advanced package, but it is step-by-step wizard oriented.
I don´t think this is what you need right now, because this "advanced" goes in directionsb you will probably not need. If you have enough money, and it fully supports your Babrieri then buy it.
But for example - it does not have spot reading !
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-12-2015 - 10:03 PM
Post: #6
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Interesting thought.

I tried to call up someone in canon who works with colour management, only one guy who does it! and he was a little busy so i'll try again tomorrow. But i did speak to someone for pricing and i'm not to worried about paying for the whole package but in the background the guy who i need to speak to was saying no not for me. thats why i need to speak to him.

I'll try look for that program though. thanks a lot.
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-13-2015 - 03:50 PM
Post: #7
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I spoke to the colour management department at canon, He suggests to try x12 before doing any external applications. He is apart of the onyx help team so if i have an issue i can go to him and he'll be able to bring it up with the programers.

He says x12 has better colour generation than 10 and he uses it all the time with out issues and he knows what problems i'm having from exp, and from personally knowing him, he is anal about his colours. so hopefully this works.

I'll keep you updated in my findings.
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 03:51 PM by Pauly.)
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-15-2015 - 08:05 PM
Post: #8
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

Hello Pauly,
I think I mislead you a bit in one of my recent post. I want to correct it now:

Yes, there is not much difference in results when you use the same profile and different color engine, but...
there are significant differences in how the profile is generated !
Colors inside target gamut are relatively safe. Out-of-gamut colors are quite "sensitive" to how the profile was constructed. Colorimetric mapping is quite well defined inside, but a bit fuzzy outside the gamut. ICC is only estimating the best (nearest) match for the outside colors, and there are many ways how to calculate that nearest match. Because everything in ICC is a segmented 3D curve, this is not a simple problem without compromises.
Perceptual and Saturation intents can also give very different results depending on ICC generation software.

If you have a device with smaller gamut (I think you have one), and because there simply is no perfect match between too distant colors.... you will always fight with such problems.
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-18-2015 - 03:15 PM
Post: #9
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I understand where you're coming from.

I believe my device is more than adequate to do what i need to do. Although the LFP would have been a better choice for me for glass but the price 14k at this moment isn't feasible.
But the problem isn't just glass.

So i'm getting a better colour output from the icc generated from the barbieri software compared to the onyx software.
I've installed a 30 day working trial of thrive x12 to test out. But right now my print button to print a icc chart is greyed out and so is the build icc button if i import my own readings.

Nothing i do in x10 will make more vibrant colours. they all tend to be the same no matter which settings i try.

Will be making a phone call after this post to see can be done.
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-18-2015 - 04:27 PM
Post: #10
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

"I believe my device is more than adequate to do what i need to do. Although the LFP would have been a better choice for me for glass but the price 14k at this moment isn't feasible."

I´m talking about you printer, not the Spectrometer ! Smiley Smiley Smiley
Every profile needs to compress colors to what is possible on your specific printer+medium+inks. Printing on exotic materials usually is suffering from MUCH smaller gamut of the printing device than all standard generic profiles have (ISO, Fogra, SWOP etc). It means heavy compression of saturated colors.
...
Before going further in the discussion you definitely need to fill gaps in you knowledge.
All this stuff is app. 3 to 5 levels deeper and far more complex than you think (or can imagine).
It´s not easy to give you correct advices. Maybe, invest some money into a good book or some training/courses.
What I can do for you - I have some own XLS "examination" tables. If you wish - send me you measurements and the profiles you generated, and I can check them for reading errors, and search the main problems. This could help you a bit further.
(This post was last modified: 10-18-2015 04:28 PM by Mikulas.)
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-18-2015 - 06:10 PM
Post: #11
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Sorry, i actually got confused from what you said as you said device and gamut in the same sentence. But yes the Arizona can print spectacular colours. even the older models with larger gamut. But at the moment i cannot replicate the colours the older one can do. a client used another printer who has an old Arizona and we compare samples all the time.

Yes i am still learning, always will be i suppose. Although i have an onyx expert on the other end of the phone and he's sent a few emails to the techs about an issue that i have greyed out print buttons to print an icc.

Got an email i can shoot you the files?
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-22-2015 - 11:36 AM
Post: #12
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

Check your PM.
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-27-2015 - 04:47 PM
Post: #13
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I got the PM. We're upgrading the system to x12. I've been on and off the phone with support and working on the issue. I have them coming out to assess it also.

Thanks for your help.
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