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getting vibrant reds??

Offline Pauly Posted 09-30-2015 - 09:09 PM
Post: #1
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

You guys have noticed i've posted a bunch of threads already. So this is easier to do a new thread on what i need to achieve again.

Material: Glass - starfire
Printer: Oce xt480
Spectro: Barbieri Spectro Pad

Note: Ink limits are already set and happy with them visually and the readings.

I had another thread about importing icc profiles to onyx.
As i now have learnt what i'm doing with Gateway + onyx, i'll skip the thread and come here. (thread will be linked to this)

After printing a sample off, The reds look "muddy" like they've gone brown.
So i made another ICC but using Barbeiri gateway patches and ICC generator. (doens't really have options, just load up the file and it outputs an ICC profile)

The sample did come out slightly better, but not what i needs to be. So back to using onyx ICC profile,

With the original settings.
Start blacks are at 45, max 100 with moderate generation. GCR type is GCR.
Gamut mapping: Enhanced colour
viewing light: D50
use large input profile size: yes
Balance CMY Gray: yes
Improve profile interpolation: no
Dynamically generate ink seperations: no (greyed out)


I am sort of new to all this. so something i don't understand just yet, although i do learn quick.


Any suggestions?

I'm going to lift the start blacks to 50. and try vivid colour and see how i go.
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Offline Pauly Posted 09-30-2015 - 11:33 PM
Post: #2
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Here's a screen shot of 2 profiles and the image in photoshop. (the first image is more brown, it's actually less, i think it's lost colour with the print screen and compression)

On the left is done with onyx. on the right is done with barbieri gateway.
No matter what mucking around i do in onyx, the over all image comes out the same. even if i use another icc chart read from coated paper


[Image: Untitled_1.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2015 11:34 PM by Pauly.)
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Offline jonkovach Posted 10-01-2015 - 06:26 AM
Post: #3
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Onyx Version:
X11
Printer(s):
HP z6100, Mimaki JV33-160, HP Latex 370

Not sure I can help from here... Have you tried disabling all profiles in Onyx to see what it looks like?

He who limps is still walking.
~Stanislaw J. Lec

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Offline Pauly Posted 10-01-2015 - 06:06 PM
Post: #4
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

Worse.
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-02-2015 - 04:07 AM
Post: #5
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

Hi Pauly (once again here).

There a lot to say behind this again. Just from my head:
1/ check the All ICC Profiles On settings - I remember there was some ugly trick behind. For images with no embedded ICC it was using some RGB profile and US CMYK profile without any warning. (don´t remember exactly). We were never able to change this All ICC Profiles On to Europe settings...

2/ Fighting the muddy profiles - yes, this is it!!! Exactly this is one of the problems of the the never-ending war with in-house profiles!!!
You will soon realize that every profile you produce is a step behind all generic profiles, or at least not better ConfusedSad
One quick test - go to Onyx measuring tools and compare the original CMYK values with final values coming out of ICC. It is good to use some known colors (like pure primaries/secondaries, 50% values, greys, deep shadows etc) and analyze the color changes of the ICC. If your ICC is making the pure colors muddy then the profile is not good. There is some systematic problem behind... Confused

Worse. (ICC off)
- Is it a CMYK picture? RGB pictures must go thru ICC even if ICC is Off...
- What about pure 0/100/100/0 red, is it nice? If yes, what about a bit darker red 0/100/100/10 or /0/100/100/20. Is it already muddy? If yes, I strongly suspect your dot gain on glass is far higher than ISO standards in generic profiles...
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2015 04:41 AM by Mikulas.)
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-04-2015 - 05:46 AM
Post: #6
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

To answer a few questions before i go to work tomorrow. (had a day off friday!)

Well to be honest, the profiles i've made are much better than the generic profiles. Especially with reproducing blues.

The picture is RGB.
I don't believe it's a dot gain issue. I have an adhesion promotor for glass as ink doesn't stick to glass. I have looked through a x10 loop at the dots also.

If i use an ICC from the barbieri creator directly into onyx, the reds tend to be better.

The tests i'll to in the morning and report back.

Also i might try some other ICC profile generators and see what i can come up with. But as far as i can see between the RIP generated image and photoshop, they're very close.

I'm also going to talk to a Tech from Oce who knows all the onyx software very well, he also does his own profiles and see if x10 vs x12 is any different in generating icc.
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-04-2015 - 02:23 PM
Post: #7
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I just made 1x4 grid of reds. on photoshop. saved as a .tiff ect

original............. Onyx icc.................. barbieri icc
0/100/100/0......5.1/100/89.4/0......... 0/95.3/91.4/3.9
0/100/100/10....13.3/100/91.8/0........0/91.8/84.7/10.6
0/100/100/20....23.5/100/94.5/0........5.1/90.6/83.5/15.3
0/100/100/30....36.5/99.6/97.3/0.......7.1/92.2/89.8/19.6
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2015 02:25 PM by Pauly.)
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-05-2015 - 10:29 AM
Post: #8
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

Well to be honest, the profiles i've made are much better than the generic profiles. Especially with reproducing blues.
- My original statement was about using generic profiles for similar media. Very different media naturally have, and must have very different ICC profiles. But as you will get closer to perfect, you will understand what I mean - for example pro-quality smoothness of in-house profiles is very problematic, and many others...

But as far as i can see between the RIP generated image and photoshop, they're very close.
- I can confirm this. Differences between up-to-date ICC engines are quite small. Most differences are in gamut mapping - and this is where you need to learn what is best for every type of picture. There is no universal gamut mapping rule... Sad

I don't believe it's a dot gain issue. I have an adhesion promotor for glass as ink doesn't stick to glass. I have looked through a x10 loop at the dots also.
- Not sure if I understand this. Dot Gain is an inherent attribute of every media. This is why linearisation is absolutely necessary.
Best media have 15-20% dot gain, average maybe 30-40%. I have also seen 60+ % on special media. Look at InkRestriction or Linearisation curve - with no dot gain your values would create a straight line. The more "bowed" the curve is the more dot gain you media has...
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2015 10:49 AM by Mikulas.)
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-05-2015 - 11:32 AM
Post: #9
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55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

If i use an ICC from the barbieri creator directly into onyx, the reds tend to be better.
original............. Onyx icc.................. barbieri icc
0/100/100/0......5.1/100/89.4/0......... 0/95.3/91.4/3.9
0/100/100/10....13.3/100/91.8/0........0/91.8/84.7/10.6
0/100/100/20....23.5/100/94.5/0........5.1/90.6/83.5/15.3
0/100/100/30....36.5/99.6/97.3/0.......7.1/92.2/89.8/19.6


Your red values look quite OK. Assuming that your source ICC profile and rendering were always same (!!!) -
what I can see here:
- I would either pull down Magenta a bit or increase Yellow - your M-Y balance could be better
- your Barbieri ICC profile gives less M+Y, and also less K than Onyx ICC. So it is not really a cleaner red, but it is a lighter red
- with Barbieri you made a profile with strong GCR and K starting at 0% - not easy to compare with "conservative" Onyx GCR starting at 40 or 50 - can you generate a new profile in Barbieri with GCR similar to Onyx?
- if you are after "supersaturated" color - try different gamut mapping. Perceptual (=Photometric) may not be the most vivid. We have success with Relative Colorimetric and with Saturation, especially if printing non-photo pictures.

And my last one (but maybe the most important ): ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION on the correct source profile!
Profile mismatch like sRGB vs. AdobeRGB can produce huge color shifts! sRGB pictures with no embedded profile need the correct sRGB settings in Onyx. sRGB pictures displayed/printed thru AdobeRGB or ECI-RGB settings are unnaturally vivid... And vice versa for AdobeRGB pictures - displayed/printed thru sRGB settings are flat and desaturated.

VERY IMPORTANT ! As I already wrote somewhere - All ICC Profiles On settings in Onyx can do a bad job!!! If your picture has no embeded ICC profile Onyx will assign "some" ICC profile (from factory settings). With high probability it will not be the correct one!
Even All ICC Profiles Off always must assign some RGB profile for every single RGB picture !!! Check your factory settings!
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-05-2015 - 02:21 PM
Post: #10
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109 Posts
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

With the barbieri icc i cannot modify anything i just load it in the program and it analyses it and gives you a file.

I'm not actually after vivid colours, more colour matching as i'm printing "fine art photography" although my clients work is very saturated with colour and high contrast.

With the profile source i've made sure that he uses the standard adobe photoshop profiles. I might go digging around for more settings.

I did have someone come out a while ago and make me a ICC for glass. he used the same spectro but used a xrite software to create the icc. When using either icc they are both the same/very similar. so i guess i'm on the right track.
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Offline Mikulas Posted 10-05-2015 - 07:45 PM
Post: #11
Banned
55 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2
Printer(s):
L26500, W8400+Onyx / Mimaki JV4, JV5 +TexPrint

I'm not actually after vivid colours, more colour matching as i'm printing "fine art photography" although my clients work is very saturated with colour and high contrast.

It´s all about color matching! Smiley Saturation doesn´t mean "spoiled color" or bad print.
Gamut mapping is the rule how to compress one color space into another (usually with different shape), and "Saturation" is one option. A valid option. It gives the priority to more clean colors. But the difference is (as always) relatively small. Just to get the last 2-3% of saturation.
Many fine-art photographers are used to work only with photometric (perceptual) mapping. But it´s not always the best option. Graphic with one dominating (important) color is a typical case where other mapping method could help. And also when working with "color-hungry" clients... Grin

With the profile source i've made sure that he uses the standard adobe photoshop profiles. I might go digging around for more settings.

sRGB and AdobeRGB are both standard profiles. Yet they are very different. Onyx can´t know what is your standard Adobe profile. The best practice is - ask everybody to save with embeded ICC profile. (and they will, of course, forget it after a week Smiley )
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Offline Pauly Posted 10-05-2015 - 09:03 PM
Post: #12
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Onyx Version:
12.0
Printer(s):
Oce Arizona 480XT

I'll be seeing him tomorrow and i'll have a chat with him.

I haven't really tried this but i might embed my own ICC i created into an image i'll edit and then print it and see how it comes out. and how it'll be ripped.

Looks like i might need to find some software that is capable if creating well enough icc profiles.
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2015 09:14 PM by Pauly.)
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