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Color Issues

Offline el pinguino Posted 04-21-2008 - 12:01 PM
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Onyx Version:
7.x
Printer(s):
HP5500 & ColorSpan 5465

Hello friends. I work at a print shop where we use Onyx to drive our HP5500 and ColorSpan 5465. I have read previous posts on here about getting correct color, but perhaps I would best be helped starting from square one. The files we send over end up coming out nothing like what they should. We constantly have to go back and tweak/change colors on the files to get remotely desirable results.

I realize nobody here works for Onyx tech support, but would somebody be able to help guide me on what formats, color spaces, etc to apply to the files. Also what settings should be used inside the quick sets.

We have problems with Pantones such as 185 looking washed out, 201 looking muddy brown, 280 looking purple-ish, etc.

Like I mentioned previously, I understand no one is under any obligation to assist, but any help would be greatly appreciated!

n8
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Offline Scott Posted 04-22-2008 - 10:10 AM
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What colorspace are you currently using inside of Onyx and are you using the appropriate
profiles for the corresponding media?

Do you guys mainly print raster or vector? or both equally?

I'm far from an expert on this, but glad to help in any way I can.

On another note, how is your ColorSpan doing? Alot of unhappy customers seem to be pleased after HP came around and got them all fixed up.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2008 10:11 AM by Scott.)

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Offline el pinguino Posted 04-22-2008 - 01:05 PM
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Onyx Version:
7.x
Printer(s):
HP5500 & ColorSpan 5465

Thanks for the reply ScottyDoo. The settings were set to have are as follows:

*Profiles:
CMYK Image = Onyx CMYK
CMYK Vector = Onyx CMYK
RGB Image = Adobe RGB 1998
RGB Vector = Adobe RGB 1998

Rendering Intents:
Image = Perceptual (Images)
Vector = Saturation (Graphics)

Output
Default Printer ICC

** I have noticed whenever I preflight a job, the color management is set to "Custom". This changes the color values of the job from their original values. For example, a job that is 50C 80M 14Y 25K in its original form, will show as 40C 75C 24Y 20K in the preflight with the color management set to custom. If I change it from custom to "All ICC Profiles Off", then the color values are correct in the preflight. This setting applies to the ColorSpan. The HP5500 has its color mgmt set to "All ICC Profiles On". What should this be set at?

*** We print about the same amount of vector files as raster files. The vast majority of the files we run on the HP 5500 and the ColorSpan are files our customers send in to us as print ready.

**** We have noticed a big quality increase since HP came out and re-certified the machine. We had several customers who refused to have their jobs ran on the ColorSpan, meaning we had to run them on the HP, then mount them to board, etc...But a few of them have come back to running their jobs on the ColorSpan since HP came out and did their thing.
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Offline Scott Posted 04-22-2008 - 01:46 PM
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Based on suggestions in another forum I have mine setup like this.

PROFILES:
CMYK Image: US Web Coated (SWOP) v2.icc
CMYK Vector: US Web Coated (SWOP) v2.icc
RBG Image: sRBG_IEC61966_21.icm
RBG Vector: sRBG_IEC61966_21.icm

We also use these same settings inside of Photoshop and Illustrator and most of the designers we receive files from do as well, so that way it's a more standard/general workflow that will work well with most situations.


RENDERING INTENT:
Image: Relative Colorimetric
Vector: Relative Colorimetric

I leave both of these the same because we run into alot of issues where there is raster data on top of a vector image. Example, if you created a drop shadow in Illustrator, the shadow is raster so when it's pulled into Onyx, you see a box around the raster portion, but if the rendering intents are both set to relative, it dissapears.

Someone smarter than I (wish Morgan/eye4clr were on this forum) could explain it, but I believe that the reason for this is that it's applying the ICC file, so it's adjusting the colors in the file based on the ICC information so that when it's output on that specific device it will be more accurate (in theory). That's my guess anyways and I could be totally wrong.


On the ColorSpan deal, that's good to hear. I'm still waiting for them to come out and update our 9840 and get it up to their standards. It's running fairly well right now, but we've gone through so MAJOR headaches and a lot of wasted 4x8 sheets of MDO.

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Offline el pinguino Posted 04-24-2008 - 08:27 AM
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Onyx Version:
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What do you have set as your output profile?
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Offline Scott Posted 04-24-2008 - 11:04 AM
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n8 Wrote:What do you have set as your output profile?
Sorry...same as you, just the default.

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Offline ΔE Posted 07-30-2008 - 06:04 PM
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Onyx Version:
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Seiko H104, Oce 250GT

Nate,

Here are some thoughts:

Inability to hit Pantone Colors
Since you mentioned not being able to hit Pantone colors, one thing should be noted: if "Spot Color Replacement" is enabled in your software (which it should be), input profiles and rendering intents specified in your quickset/preflight are NOT being used (on the Pantone Colors, but will be used for the rest of the document). Therefore, trying to tackle this issue by changing these options will get you nowhere. Your inability to accurately reproduce spot colors will be due to one or more of the following:
1. The output/media profile is inaccurate and needs to be re-created correctly.
2. Your printer's inks aren't capable of reproducing your spot colors.
3. The media isn't capable of holding enough ink to reproduce your spot colors.

If you're willing to do a bit of legwork, open Media Manager, go to "Reports and Tools" then "Gamut Report." Select your media and click "Run Report" to get the CIEDE2000 info for each of your Pantone colors. A value of less than 2 is generally imperceptable, and most print shops would be happy with anything less than 8. Anything above 8 and visual differences are going to be quite apparent. If your CIEDE2000 value is in the 2-8 range for any given Pantone color, yet the printed result is not even close...the problem is going to be #1 from above. If the CIEDE2000 is much higher than 8, then the problem could be any of the three. High quality media with an accurate media profile is always the best solution for color accuracy.

Color Values Changing in Preflight
There seems to be a ubiquitous misconception that the values in Preflight should match those in your design application. Nothing could be further from the truth when using an ICC workflow. Using the sample point in Preflight, you can move your cursor over any given color/pixel and see what values are actually going to be sent to the printer (which values are relative to the specified settings for Ink Restrictions, Linearization and Ink Limit). The important thing to remember is that THESE VALUES HAVE BEEN ADJUSTED BY YOUR OUTPUT ICC (thank goodness). The purpose of an output ICC profile in Onyx is specifically this: to adjust your original color values defined in your source colorspace (such as sRGB or US Web Coated SWOP, etc.) to achieve color accuracy on your printer/media/resolution combination. I think we all know what would happen if you were to send identical color values to each of your printers - you'd get completely different results. Inks are different among printers, as are drop sizes, not to mention the bevy of miscellaneous media and resolution possibilities. These differences call for a unique color recipe to achieve accuracy, which is defined and taylormade when creating a media/output profile. This recipe changes your original values for the unique printer/media/resolution/etc. being used. Your color values match those defined in your creation application when selecting "All ICC Profiles Off" specifically for that reason: profiles aren't being used.

Rendering Intent Selection
This is where everyone's opinion seems to differ, but here are my two cents: stick with the defaults of Perceptual for raster and Saturation for vector.
- Perceptual rendering for raster data tries to preserve some relationship with out of gamut colors, even if this results in slight inaccuracies for in gamut colors. Despite these small inaccuracies, it generally offers the best rendering for raster images, particularly those with saturated colors and a wide tonal range.
- Saturation rendering (for vector) tries to preserve saturated colors even if this causes them to become relatively more extreme. Vector signage often times calls for vivid colors, which will generally become overly muted when using any other rendering intent than Saturation or PosterColor.

The main reason I would stay away from relative colorimetric (particularly for vector artwork) is because, although it maintains a near exact relationship between in gamut colors, it clips the out of gamut colors. For example, if I have a saturated gradient that becomes out of gamut at 75% and above, all colors from 75%-100% would be mapped to the same color, causing annoyingly noticeable posterization. If your printer/media are capable of achieving an extremely high gamut (or you don't print highly-vivid vector content) then relative colorimetric would work in most situations. Unfortunately neither of those two are usually the case.

Scotty brings up a good point regarding vector files that have elements with drop shadows or an outer glow applied: you'll notice a box around the element. The reason for this is that Illustrator (or whatever vector drawing program you happen to use) rasterizes the area around the element in order to create the drop shadow or outer glow. This results in a vector file that can have vectorized solid colors that turn into rasterized solid colors as they approach the element with the shadow/glow. Since rendering intents (by default) are different between vector and raster in Onyx, you get a color shift around your element. Fortunately this anomaly can be seen in Preflight, and as long as you have a conscientious operator you can match up the rendering intents on an individual basis for these unique files, preventing the masses from being negatively effected because of the few exceptions.

Good Luck!
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-31-2008 - 09:58 AM
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Great reply DE...

Just an addition re: rendering intents in case people aren't clear what the intents are doing.

The rendering intent tells the RIP what to do with out of gamut colours. ie. colours that are in the source image that can't be reproduced by the printer/media/ink combination you're using.

IF all of the colours in your image file are within the output gamut of your chosen media the perceptual and relative colourmetric rendering intents will have no effect.

You need to know what each does so that you can approach different problems in different ways.

I find it easiest to think of my output gamut as a circle, representing all the colours I can print on a media. I like to think of my input gamut as a triangle. (these shapes are irrelevant, but this is how I explain it to my staff)

When printing I am putting the triangle on top of the circle. If the triangle is bigger than the circle, i have points of the triangle sticking out past the edge of the circle. (These spikes are the out of gamut colours.)

The Relative Colourmetric intent handles out of gamut colours by snapping off the points of the triangle where they cross the circles edge. Every colour that was outside the circle is printed as the colour represented by the nearest point on the circles edge where that spike was snapped off. This is what D E desribes as clipping. This will flatten areas of similar out of gamut colour and print them as one flat colour.

Sounds awful - BUT keep in mind that the part of the triangle that was in the circle, all of the colours that were within the gamut of the output media, are printed exactly as they were intended. They're not messed with at all.

The Perceptual Colourmetric intent handles out of gamut colours (back to our triangle and circle again) by shrinking the whole triangle until its points are on the edges of the circle. The effect is pleasing, there's no clipping, and if you're printing mainly photographs this is probably what you're after. HOWEVER (and it's a big HOWEVER) - all of the colours in your image have been messed with. The ones that were in Gamut have been messed with!

The most common frustration if you don't understand what the intents are up to is when you print a pdf or eps file containing both image and vector data. the image intent is set to perceptual, the vector to Relative. Lets use a real example...

A client makes a roller abnner artwork. in photoshop he carefully cuts out his products and puts them on a coloured background. he flattens each image and saves it. he places each image in illustrator, puts his descriptive text where he wants it, and draws a big rectangle behind it. He then uses the eyedropper to select his background colour from one of the images to put a solid box of that colour behind everything. His final roller banner appears to be one solid colour with images and text on it. He saves it as an eps or pdf and sends it out to print.

Assume your RIP is set to treat raster images with the Perceptual intent - moving all colours until the whole image is within gamut - and the vector elements are treated with the relative intent, moving only the out of gamut colours.

What will happen when you print it?

A few possibilities exist...

1) If there are no out of gamut colours in any element of the file then the print will be fine as the intents won't come into play.

2) (most likely scenario) Somewhere in one of the image files will be an out of gamut colour. That whole image is shifted with the perceptual intent INCLUDING that background colour. It now doesn't match the background despite the fact that when you open the pdf on screen it's one solid colour. We have the all too familiar slightly different coloured square around the image whilst the background rectangle is the right colour.

3) An entertaining one... The background colour is actually out of gamut... the perceptual intent brings it into gamut, adjusting all colours in the image files, and the vector background is also adjusted into gamut. It's possible, that the backgroudn colours of the raster and vector components will arrive at the same place, and only the image elements will be shifted. Unlikely though. It's more likely the boxes around the image will be visible again....

So here's my take on which to use and when.....

If your image is purely vector - use the relative colourmetric intent. All elemtns of your file that are in gamut will print accurately and any out of gamut colours will print as near as possible.

If your image is purely raster (eg. tif/jpg) then in most instances the Perceptual intent will be best.

If your image combines both raster and vector - be very careful - and only mix up your intents by deliberate choice. I would start with Relative for both, and only experiment if something about the result is displeasing. Most of the time you'll be happy with the result.

I would only use the Saturation intent if printing signage where accurate colour isn't as vital as strong punchy colour.

I don't use the absolute intent as that's really designed for proofing on one media how a print would look on another by taking the white point into account. I'm not proofing a press so I don't touch it.



Hopefully, that waffle will save more headaches than it causes!

All the best
Craig

PS. RE: Colour Tables - if ICC's are ignored when Colour Tables are being used - what happens when a file combines colour managed images with Pantone labelled vector work? (apart from more bruises on my forehead and dents in my wall?)
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Offline ΔE Posted 07-31-2008 - 10:52 AM
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Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Seiko H104, Oce 250GT

ICC's actually are not being completely ignored when printing with Pantone colors (Color Table enabled). What I was trying to explain is that when you print a Pantone through Onyx with the Color Table enabled, an INPUT ICC isn't being applied to the Pantones (the rest of the document is color managed as usual). The reason for this is that Onyx has been given (from Pantone) the L*, a*, b* values for each Pantone color. These values are directly mapped to the output ICC, bypassing the input profile.
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Offline Fingers Posted 07-31-2008 - 03:18 PM
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that makes sense. I'm not making proper use of the pantone tables. Will experiment with that tomorrow!
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-06-2010 - 03:50 PM
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Fingers,

Nice reply, except...

Quote:IF all of the colours in your image file are within the output gamut of your chosen media the perceptual and relative colourmetric rendering intents will have no effect.

That's true of relative colorimetric, but not of perceptual.

Profiles have no idea what the composition is of the image they're altering. They don't know whether an image is wholly within the gamut of the destination space or not. The purpose of perceptual rendering intent is--to very much simplify--to avoid clipping at the outer edges of the profile by moving all colors in the image toward the center of the profile--the white point; which it does by whatever means--reference gamut, for instance--that was built into the profile when the profile was made.

So any in-gamut colors that the perceptual rendering intent of a given profile will move it will move and in the same amounts, regardless of whether there are other colors in the image that are out of gamut or not.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2010 03:55 PM by Correct Color.)
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Offline Fingers Posted 04-07-2010 - 04:01 AM
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Mike, I bow to your experience, I'm relatively new to getting under the bonnet with CM.

I've been misinterpretting what the Perceptual Intent does. If I'm understanding you, you're saying that the perceptual intent will adjust all colours whenever the conversion is from a larger gamut to a smaller gamut EVEN if the all the colours in the image in question would have been within the output gamut. Is that right? That makes sense when I think about it!

If you're ever in the UK, or want to subsidise a trip to the UK by checking/fixing my setup do shout!
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-07-2010 - 05:49 AM
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Quote:If I'm understanding you, you're saying that the perceptual intent will adjust all colours whenever the conversion is from a larger gamut to a smaller gamut EVEN if the all the colours in the image in question would have been within the output gamut. Is that right? That makes sense when I think about it!

Yeah...basically.

Or at least in practice that's how it turns out. But a truer way to picture it is the relationship of the gamut of the image being converted to the "reference gamut" in the profile; that's what determines if and how in-gamut colors will be shifted.

That's why if you're converting from a smaller space to larger space in perceptual, you shouldn't see any shifts--although it's possible you can. However you can usually safely assume that the reference in perceptual in a large space will cover a smaller one.

The important takeaway here though is that all profile-making engines are different, and one of the key differences between them is how they handle the making of the perceptual intent.

Some of the better engines give the maker of the profile pretty good control over the parameters of the perceptual reference; some of the cheaper ones, not so much or none at all. And frankly, even some of the pricey ones that give reasonable control over making the perceptual intent still don't do a very good job of it.

If you're really, really interested in this, I've got a column on the very subject of rendering intents coming out in the May issue of Wide-Format Imaging magazine that goes into quite a bit more detail.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline Fingers Posted 04-07-2010 - 06:14 AM
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Thanks Mike, For my sins I am really really interested in it. In most company that makes me a little odd, but I feel on safe ground here Smiley

Out of interest, how do you rate the Onyx 7.3.2 Profiler in this regard?
(This post was last modified: 04-07-2010 06:16 AM by Fingers.)
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-07-2010 - 08:38 AM
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(04-07-2010 06:14 AM)Fingers Wrote:  Thanks Mike, For my sins I am really really interested in it. In most company that makes me a little odd, but I feel on safe ground here Smiley

Out of interest, how do you rate the Onyx 7.3.2 Profiler in this regard?

Er...*Tugging at collar and looking furtively left and right...*

Can I answer you off list on that?
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-08-2010 - 07:56 AM
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Delta E,

Just a quick question...

Quote:Since you mentioned not being able to hit Pantone colors, one thing should be noted: if "Spot Color Replacement" is enabled in your software (which it should be), input profiles and rendering intents specified in your quickset/preflight are NOT being used (on the Pantone Colors, but will be used for the rest of the document). Therefore, trying to tackle this issue by changing these options will get you nowhere. Your inability to accurately reproduce spot colors will be due to one or more of the following:
1. The output/media profile is inaccurate and needs to be re-created correctly.
2. Your printer's inks aren't capable of reproducing your spot colors.
3. The media isn't capable of holding enough ink to reproduce your spot colors.

I agree with all of this, except, are you certain that the input rendering intents are disregarded as well as the profile when a PMS color is called?

I've never checked but always just assumed they were used. Since even though the originating space is disregarded and Onyx basically looks for the closest match to the L*a*b* value of the PMS color called in the file in the destination space, there still has the be a rendering intent used to make the final transform. If not the one called for, which one is it, and how is it determined?

(Also it should be noted that a PMS color is only a PMS color to a RIP in a vector file. Once it's rasterized, it's just the pixel values assigned to the color based on whatever color spaces were being used at the time of rasterization.)

Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2010 07:57 AM by Correct Color.)
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Offline Scott Posted 04-08-2010 - 05:31 PM
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(04-07-2010 08:38 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  Er...*Tugging at collar and looking furtively left and right...*

Can I answer you off list on that?

Personally I would love to hear your opinion, and if you're comfortable I would love to see you post it on the forum. This site isn't owned or operated by Onyx Graphics so you won't receive any backlash from us here. I also think any and all criticism is both welcomed and wonderful to hear. How else is Onyx going to know where they need improvement?

With as much experience and expertise as you have, I think your thoughts and opinions are especially valid.

I do completely understand however if for any reason you would just prefer to not post it publicly. I just want to make sure you don't feel like you have to worry about giving (perhaps harsh) criticism of Onyx here on the forum.

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Offline Fingers Posted 04-13-2010 - 10:09 AM
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(04-08-2010 07:56 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  I agree with all of this, except, are you certain that the input rendering intents are disregarded as well as the profile when a PMS color is called?

I've never checked but always just assumed they were used. Since even though the originating space is disregarded and Onyx basically looks for the closest match to the L*a*b* value of the PMS color called in the file in the destination space, there still has the be a rendering intent used to make the final transform. If not the one called for, which one is it, and how is it determined?
Correct Color

Mike,

Took me a while, but as I understand it the output intent for the Spot Colour Table is specified in the Configure RIP settings, with the SPOTRENDERINTENT setting. It needs to be checked and the value you set defines the rendering intent used when working with the Spot Colour Table. The values are 0=Perceptual, 1=Absolute Colorimetric, 2=Relative Colorimetric, 3=Saturation. If it's not checked then Absolute Colorimetric is used by default.

Regards,
Craig
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Offline Correct Color Posted 04-14-2010 - 06:40 AM
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Craig,

That's a pretty good catch. From now on--just as redundancy if nothing else--I'm going to start checking that box and setting the intent there. However from my reading, my take was that that switch might be an override, and it doesn't come into play unless you check the box. My assumption still would have been that it defaults back to whatever was set in the input section unless you check the box and make a selection.

However it's definitely a little ambiguous and it never hurts to be sure.

Scott,

Well, let's just say I'm obviously not a fan. I love the RIP but my own personal opinion is that that profile-making engine was a definite step backwards.

But I hate to get into it too deeply on the likes of any message board; mainly because on the one hand, surely there are people who would disagree and I try real hard not to get into arguments on the Internet, and also because the guys at Onyx were actually nice enough to give me a part number which--in essence--is Production House minus that engine, due to the fact that obviously since I'm selling my services as well as Onyx to my clients, even if that was the engine I used, selling it to them would be a little redundant.

Mike
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Offline Scott Posted 04-14-2010 - 03:29 PM
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(04-14-2010 06:40 AM)Correct Color Wrote:  Well, let's just say I'm obviously not a fan. I love the RIP but my own personal opinion is that that profile-making engine was a definite step backwards.

There's a guy I know in CA that used to frequent some other print forums that would agree with you. He preferred the 6.5 engine and didn't like the 7.x engine "updates" =)

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