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Canvas Prints

Offline simonw999 Posted 02-14-2012 - 01:26 AM
Post: #1
Member
3 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
10.1
Printer(s):
HP Z6200

Hello Everyone.

I'm new to the Onyx rip and I seem to be having some trouble getting my settings right for running canvas prints.

Im using an HP Z6200 running HP Polyester Inkjet Satin canvas.

I have played about with various input settings, ie Matchprint/Cromalin, changed the SWOP profile about ,

I am running with lighter images, but overall everything is a just a little light, (but generally acceptable and an overall nice print), if I am being too picky.

Any other setting and all prints seem to be way too heavy, especially in the shadow area.

Has anybody had a similar issue running from the Onyx, or have any setting they may wish to share that could overcome this issue.

Many thanks

Simon
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Offline Fingers Posted 02-15-2012 - 07:51 AM
Post: #2
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141 Posts
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Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

"I have played about with various input settings, ie Matchprint/Cromalin, changed the SWOP profile about"

That there says it all. Go to Amazon and buy Real World Color Management by Bruce Fraser et al. Read it!

Know what colour space your input file is in. If the file does not have an ICC profile embedded, talk to the file supplier, or learn to save the file with one embedded if you're creating the files.

Your input ICC settings should ALWAYS be the same as the ICC the file has embedded! Stop messing with them. (If your file is in SWOP (which is a real shame for canvas as it's a small colour space) then your input setting should be SWOP.) Ideally set Onyx to always use embedded profiles, and you'll never have to touch this again. In most circumstances printing canvas you'll probably want to use the Perceptual rendering intent.

What you're doing by messing around with the input settings is trying to compensate for bad output settings by feeding in wrong information - and hoping it's wrong by the same amount that the output is! In the vague hope that you'll end up with something in the vicinity of right. This will drive you mental! Every file will need different treatment! Save yourself some time - bash your head against the wall until you're dazed, and hand over your bank account to your suppliers because you're going to waste so much time and material messing in this way.

If your output profile is lousy - you're stuffed. You need an accurate one. Beg, buy, or best of all hire someone to make one for you. There are places that will do it remotely.

Once the output side is accurate - and you understand how to input a colour managed file - you can sit back and watch every print come out exactly right first time with no messing around in time or materials.

I say this as someone who spent his first 3 years in wide format tweaking curves, randomly applying profiles, rendering intents, and swearing. Quite a lot of loud swearing at material. At files. At the audacity of customers to send me files I couldn't get to come out right.

Seriously - don't keep doing what you're doing - or at least commit to smack yourself in the chops every time you get the notion to randomly assign different input profiles and print a small patch to see if it's any better....

I hope that helps Smiley

Regards,
Craig
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Offline simonw999 Posted 02-16-2012 - 12:33 AM
Post: #3
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3 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
10.1
Printer(s):
HP Z6200

Craig.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question.

This is day 5 of messing about with the Onyx rip and I've sort of been tasked to try and get this right.

I have been given 2 images that were printed before my arrival at this company.
1 image from competitor A
1 image from competitor B.


Now make both images match using 1 curve on the rip only.

Although nobody knows what the samples were printed on etc etc.

An almost impossible task, I know.

As you have pointed out, I have chased around, matched one image, but these settings do not work for all images.

I have been running, since, with the Tiff embedded ICC setting Default CMYK/RGB, which again is giving a good overall image but I think heavy in the shadows.

I will now find out if we are embedding a profile before creating our files.

We will be getting someone in to profile the machines.

Until then lets hope these current settings work.

Also
Would I be correct that Onyx does not use profile from a pdf?
One more question.

In your experience. Will the fact that I have a total ink value of 300 in the photoshop file cause problems. Should the value be set lower?

Many thanks again for your time.

Simon
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2012 02:36 AM by simonw999.)
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Offline virtu Posted 02-16-2012 - 11:02 AM
Post: #4
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Onyx wont use profile from PDF. It will from TIF.

300 % total ink is in the file. That shouldnt be a problem. The files colorspace gets converted into your canvascolorspace. 300%ink in the file doesnt mean that 300% ink lands on your media.

Fingers told you what to do. In addition to his advice i'd read this too:
http://www.onyxtalk.com/thread-understanding-ink-limits

When that guy comes and profiles your machine, then have a good look what he is doing and learn it.

A solid output profile is the basement of a good print. The input profile tells you what the color in your file has to look like.
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Offline Correct Color Posted 02-16-2012 - 01:24 PM
Post: #5
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

The thing to keep in kind is in fact, a RIP's only real function in life is to convert computer pixels into printing dots.

And it makes those dots from the information in the output profile you tell it to use as its reference to make them.

And for that reason, profiles are everything. As Craig said, if you're futzing around with input profiles, you're deliberately telling your RIP to make its dots from color information that's not the correct color information in the pixels of your file. You need to figure out what color space your files are in, then make sure the RIP processes them as in that color space.

That done, how well your prints come out is determined by how good your printer profiles are.

And on that score, I'll break a little from Craig, and say that it's really not necessary to read "Real World Color Management" or even to watch your profiler profile your machine...unless you want to learn to become a color management expert.

Which is fine, but if you do, understand that there is a lot to it. You may or may not like it, and the hours you devote to it may be better devoted to other things. It may just turn out that making your own profiles makes about as much sense as being your own lawyer.

What is necessary to understand is that a profile is not just a profile. All profiles are not created equal.

Nothing is more important to understand than that.

It's pretty well-known around here that I think Onyx is the best RIP on the market, and has the best platform for getting the best possible color out of each image you print. However, if you use the media-creating tools in Onyx as described by Onyx...you won't get anywhere near all the capability out of your machine from your profiles.

By the same token, last time I counted, there were some 27 ICC profile-making engines out there. Of those engines, I'd rate two as superior. The rest are substandard to some degree or another, in some way or another.

If your profiles are made with any of the substandard engines, well, they're going to be substandard profiles.

What I'd look for if I were you is someone to come in and set up your color management from beginning to end. Someone to explain color spaces to you, to profile all your monitors, to profile all your machines on all your media and then use your actual machine profiles to set up soft-proofing conditions on all your design workstations; someone who will demonstrate to you exactly what color management is and how it works, then give you lifetime free tech support when they're done.

And then, I dunno, maybe give you an ironclad guarantee on the thing. Something like: If you don't think this is the best money you ever spent when I'm done, you don't have to pay me.

Look around. That'd be the guy I'd get.



Mike Adams
Correct Color
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Offline simonw999 Posted 02-17-2012 - 12:27 AM
Post: #6
Member
3 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
10.1
Printer(s):
HP Z6200

Thanks for the responses everybody, you told me what I thought the answer would be.

I was trying to do a quick cure all, but as I suspected it wouldn't work.

Now I just have to wait for the boss to pay for the specialist.
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Offline Fingers Posted 02-20-2012 - 02:16 AM
Post: #7
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141 Posts
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Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

Mike - I'd just assumed from the time stamps of Simon's posts that he's my side of the pond. As much as you're worth every penny, for one HP6200 running mostly on canvas, that's quite a trek. The assumption was all mine though. Simon - where are you based?!

You're right of course. My chosen route was to learn all about it AND get an expert to fly half way around the world to get me set up right. I spent weeks studying it and taking lessons and exams, and I'm still a complete beginner in comparison. I use an ever changing range of products across three machines, and need to be able to profile well myself. Fact is, if I stuck with the same products, the fire and forget setup you put in place here would be all I need for headache free accurate colour.
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Offline Correct Color Posted 02-20-2012 - 08:44 AM
Post: #8
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128 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

Never even thought of that...

Well, if he is in the UK, and he doesn't want to fly me back over so I can get my Abbey Road crosswalk picture...

then he probably ought to hire you.
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Offline Douglas Posted 02-23-2012 - 09:10 AM
Post: #9
Onyx Graphics
87 Posts
Onyx Graphics

Onyx Version:
All
Printer(s):
Varies

(02-16-2012 01:24 PM)Correct Color Wrote:  What is necessary to understand is that a profile is not just a profile. All profiles are not created equal.

Nothing is more important to understand than that.

It's pretty well-known around here that I think Onyx is the best RIP on the market, and has the best platform for getting the best possible color out of each image you print. However, if you use the media-creating tools in Onyx as described by Onyx...you won't get anywhere near all the capability out of your machine from your profiles.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

Mike as always I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your support of ONYX and this community. If we could package you up with the software life would be grand Wink

For the benefit of the community I'd like to give a brief overview of our profiling tools, the challenges of out of box color, why color consults are so important, and request comments on what we might do to make everyone's jobs easier.

I'm often asked "What settings should I use to get the best profile?" Usually, unless I've personally used the particular ink-set and media I'll answer, that it depends.
It depends on what one defines as 'best'. For some, best is defined as the fastest print, using the least amount of ink to achieve acceptable color.
That description alone requires that several question be answered.
What speed is the printer capable of?; What does the customer consider to be 'acceptable' color?; What range of ink use (low to high) will the media coating support?
Others might have expectations of color constancy, or some flavor of print standardization(G7, SWOP, GRAcol, Fogra, etc.).

As one can imagine it's challenging to anticipate the many variables that go into creating a favorable print conditon. Much less accounting for the variety of media and ink behavior.
Having said that, we are continuing to look at ways to improve the out of box experience.
Some of the things we did to make profiling easier in X10 were; Automation of Ink Restrictions; Auto selecting appropriate settings based on the selected Ink Configuration, and improved online help with more detailed and accurate information.

So my question is (without divulging your secrets) what can we do to make the out of box profiling experience better?

Thanks!

Doug Mackay
Engineering R&D Lab
ONYX - Simple. Innovative. Proven.
www.onyxgfx.com

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Offline Correct Color Posted 02-23-2012 - 10:57 AM
Post: #10
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128 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10
Printer(s):
Epson

Quote: If we could package you up with the software life would be grand...

Well feel free to make me an offer I can't refuse.

Quote:So my question is (without divulging your secrets) what can we do to make the out of box profiling experience better?

C'mon, man. My wife would throw me out of the house if I answered that on a message board. I am available for consultation though. Very reasonable.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2012 10:59 AM by Correct Color.)
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Offline Henry Posted 02-24-2012 - 12:36 AM
Post: #11
Member
57 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Seiko ColorPainter H-74s

(02-16-2012 11:02 AM)virtu Wrote:  Onyx wont use profile from PDF. It will from TIF.

As far as i know Onyx will use the embedded profiles in the PDF files!

Eps files don't.

Or am i wrong?

Please enlighten meSmiley

Henry
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Offline virtu Posted 02-24-2012 - 12:54 AM
Post: #12
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127 Posts
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

make a pdf with a 255/0/0 adobergb and a 255/0/0 srgb in it then print the file.those reds should look different.

do they when you try it?
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Offline Henry Posted 02-24-2012 - 02:05 AM
Post: #13
Member
57 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Seiko ColorPainter H-74s

(02-24-2012 12:54 AM)virtu Wrote:  make a pdf with a 255/0/0 adobergb and a 255/0/0 srgb in it then print the file.those reds should look different.

do they when you try it?

They appear as different values in Preflight.
Same goes for aCmyk Pdf Fogra27 v. Us webcoated, again different values.
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Offline virtu Posted 02-24-2012 - 02:52 AM
Post: #14
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

So you got 2 different reds in 1 pdf file? That doesnt work on my Onyx. I got "All profiles On" but my preflight says the srgb=adobergb.

It only works here if there is only 1 rgb and 1 cmyk profile in the file. When i have 2 rgbs in 1 files they both appear same in preflight.

How did you create the pdf file?
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Offline Henry Posted 02-24-2012 - 04:26 AM
Post: #15
Member
57 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Seiko ColorPainter H-74s

You ment two Rgb profiles in one Pdf? i made two separate files one with sRgb and one with AdobeRgb
So i miss understood somethingSmiley
It is possible to have a Cmyk and a Rgb profile together in one file.
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Offline virtu Posted 02-24-2012 - 08:53 AM
Post: #16
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Yes i meant in 1 file. It often happens that some designers put some sRGB pics together with AdobeRGB and CMYKs into 1 pdf file. In that case my onyx doesnt interpret it correctly.
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Offline virtu Posted 02-27-2012 - 08:27 AM
Post: #17
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Onyx Version:
10.2.5
Printer(s):
Spuhl virtu RS-35, Canon ipf9100, HP5000, RS-640

Henry looks like you were right and i am wrong.

I just tested a file with 4 different icc profiles embedded. I made 1 srgb red, 1 adobergb red, 1 coatedfogra27 red and a swop red.

Onyx did see all those reds were different.

I was sure that i did same test a few years ago and the result wasnt the same.
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Offline Henry Posted 02-28-2012 - 06:45 AM
Post: #18
Member
57 Posts
Member

Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Seiko ColorPainter H-74s

(02-27-2012 08:27 AM)virtu Wrote:  Henry looks like you were right and i am wrong.

I just tested a file with 4 different icc profiles embedded. I made 1 srgb red, 1 adobergb red, 1 coatedfogra27 red and a swop red.

Onyx did see all those reds were different.

I was sure that i did same test a few years ago and the result wasnt the same.

That's some good news, now i can trust the Pdf files i getSmiley

But sometimes when i open a Pdf in Illustrator it says there is no embedded profile
i know i should return the file, but often there is no time or source were it came from.
My question is should i "preset" Adobe rgb or sRgb in Onyx?

Thanks!
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Offline Fingers Posted 02-28-2012 - 12:26 PM
Post: #19
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141 Posts
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Onyx Version:
7.3.2
Printer(s):
Hp5000, HP5500, Mimaki JV3

My logic is that if someone knows enough to have set their default CS colour spaces to something appropriate to their workflow - then they know enough to ensure they pass that information down the chain. If I get a PDF with no embedded ICCs, I assume the source had no clue, so was running the Adobe CS defaults.

So - SWOP and sRGB. Seems crazy that CS5 shipped with those as the default but such is life.
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